turbo vs. supercharger
Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 36
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Both!
Anyway -
Whether to choose turbo or supercharged, both work well IF you designed the system and the car around what your trying to do.
Don't assume a turbo is a bad idea for Autocrossing, the last four years, national champion in SCCA Street Modified has been turbocharged. Proper turbo selection is critical to the sucess of whatever motorsport your trying to competete in.
You wouldn't use a tiny A/R turbo to build a 8 second drag car out of, just like you wouldn't use the largest T-66 Ball Bearing Turbo for Autcrossing or Hill Climbs.
Supercharger will give you the best "transient response" and might be the best choice for a car that is mostly driven on the street and sees very little track duty. Reliablity becomes paramount to these types of people also. Superchargers are very much a "set and forget it" modification. But don't be fooled into thinking you can't get better than decent power numbers from it.
Xorro has basically shown you the path with her car, but you can go much futher. Just learn from others in your postition.
Again PART SELECTION IS CRITICAL!
You want the best performance, don't use an "off the shelf" header designed for N/A applcations. That is the most common mistake I see in supercharger tuning.
Attention to detail is next. Does your blower outlet line up perfectly with the manifold opening? Could the "J" tube on the supercharger inlet make a smoother transition by machining? Do the intake manifold ports line up with the head perfectly?
If you want me to make some serious power without extentsive blower housing mods, get a smaller blower pulley and larger crankshaft pulley. ASP can custom make you whatever you need and can help you with proper sizing. You'll want to run the M45 out to at least 8-10psi (blower pulley only) or 12-14psi (blower/crank pulley). With proper tuning, correct header and 2.5" free flowing mandrel bent exhaust system, a Beta shouldn't have any problem crossing well into the 200hp range at the wheels.
A Eaton M45 with a ported housing (roughly $1,000 in machine work), matched intake manifold (based on Honda JRSC kits) will make 15-16psi in short burst (ie: Drag Racing). Water Injection should be employed and lower cruising speeds should be oberseved, as you can damage the rotors from overheating the housing with prolonged, steady-state use at high boost levels.
On the otherhand, turbochargers will make the most midrange and high RPM TORQUE production.
Forget HP numbers for a second. Remember "Transit Response"? Its basically how long it takes for the engine to react after a gear change. The faster the engine reacts the quicker the car accelerates. Simple really....
So again PROPER PART SELECTION IS CRITICAL. You wanna make gaudy HP numbers to impress 16 year olds? Then get the largest turbocharger you can find that will fit under the hood of your RD. Run it on 116 leaded fuel and crank the boost up to 28psi, if you don't have any restrictions, it should make impressive power but it would be a dog in normal street driving. If that's what your after, then by all means.
Don't even bother with any of the kits available.
If your goal is a decent kick in the pants, then any of the turbo kits available will fill the bill. Otherwise, get a manifold and spec' a turbo for what your trying to do. Speed cost money, you can get by with 20 year old Garrett T series turbos and save some money. But if you really want to do it right, get a Precision T series turbo. At least they use newer GT wheel designs inside cheaper T series housings. If you want the best you can get, look no futher than Garrett's GT series. The GT25/40 is about a perfect street/strip turbo your going to get. Its just as fast at spool up as a regualr GT28 ball-bearing, but is capable of over 400hp with the right wheels sizes and housings.
But you also have to remember to build the rest of the car accordingly.....
Something to ponder....
Anyway -
Whether to choose turbo or supercharged, both work well IF you designed the system and the car around what your trying to do.
Don't assume a turbo is a bad idea for Autocrossing, the last four years, national champion in SCCA Street Modified has been turbocharged. Proper turbo selection is critical to the sucess of whatever motorsport your trying to competete in.
You wouldn't use a tiny A/R turbo to build a 8 second drag car out of, just like you wouldn't use the largest T-66 Ball Bearing Turbo for Autcrossing or Hill Climbs.
Supercharger will give you the best "transient response" and might be the best choice for a car that is mostly driven on the street and sees very little track duty. Reliablity becomes paramount to these types of people also. Superchargers are very much a "set and forget it" modification. But don't be fooled into thinking you can't get better than decent power numbers from it.
Xorro has basically shown you the path with her car, but you can go much futher. Just learn from others in your postition.
Again PART SELECTION IS CRITICAL!
You want the best performance, don't use an "off the shelf" header designed for N/A applcations. That is the most common mistake I see in supercharger tuning.
Attention to detail is next. Does your blower outlet line up perfectly with the manifold opening? Could the "J" tube on the supercharger inlet make a smoother transition by machining? Do the intake manifold ports line up with the head perfectly?
If you want me to make some serious power without extentsive blower housing mods, get a smaller blower pulley and larger crankshaft pulley. ASP can custom make you whatever you need and can help you with proper sizing. You'll want to run the M45 out to at least 8-10psi (blower pulley only) or 12-14psi (blower/crank pulley). With proper tuning, correct header and 2.5" free flowing mandrel bent exhaust system, a Beta shouldn't have any problem crossing well into the 200hp range at the wheels.
A Eaton M45 with a ported housing (roughly $1,000 in machine work), matched intake manifold (based on Honda JRSC kits) will make 15-16psi in short burst (ie: Drag Racing). Water Injection should be employed and lower cruising speeds should be oberseved, as you can damage the rotors from overheating the housing with prolonged, steady-state use at high boost levels.
On the otherhand, turbochargers will make the most midrange and high RPM TORQUE production.
Forget HP numbers for a second. Remember "Transit Response"? Its basically how long it takes for the engine to react after a gear change. The faster the engine reacts the quicker the car accelerates. Simple really....
So again PROPER PART SELECTION IS CRITICAL. You wanna make gaudy HP numbers to impress 16 year olds? Then get the largest turbocharger you can find that will fit under the hood of your RD. Run it on 116 leaded fuel and crank the boost up to 28psi, if you don't have any restrictions, it should make impressive power but it would be a dog in normal street driving. If that's what your after, then by all means.
Don't even bother with any of the kits available.
If your goal is a decent kick in the pants, then any of the turbo kits available will fill the bill. Otherwise, get a manifold and spec' a turbo for what your trying to do. Speed cost money, you can get by with 20 year old Garrett T series turbos and save some money. But if you really want to do it right, get a Precision T series turbo. At least they use newer GT wheel designs inside cheaper T series housings. If you want the best you can get, look no futher than Garrett's GT series. The GT25/40 is about a perfect street/strip turbo your going to get. Its just as fast at spool up as a regualr GT28 ball-bearing, but is capable of over 400hp with the right wheels sizes and housings.
But you also have to remember to build the rest of the car accordingly.....
Something to ponder....
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,041
Likes: 0
From: SOUTH Jersey
QUOTE (dj4monie)
Both!
But you also have to remember to build the rest of the car accordingly.....
But you also have to remember to build the rest of the car accordingly.....
Thankyou for hitting all the good points. Sometimes it is VERY hard to get people to understand why I want an SC over a turbo is simply because of the Transient response the Belt driven compressor gives in comparison to the exhaust driven.
And as for the rest of it... before I add much more to the car, it WILL have the suspension and brakes to handle the upgrade in power. I remember seeing a turbo civic hatch.. according to the owner the car made 300+whp.... but he was still running the tiny rear brake drums.
Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 36
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70-80% of your braking is done by the front. Having rear drums is not that big of an issue if you have effective front brakes...
ACR Neons all have 4 wheels disc, but stop no shorter from 60mph than a Highline model with rear drums.
Most cars don't need much more than stickier tires and better brake pads (EBC Green Stuff works well and so does Performance Friction Metalic.
People are blinded by huge HP numbers, its sexy, what can I say...
ACR Neons all have 4 wheels disc, but stop no shorter from 60mph than a Highline model with rear drums.
Most cars don't need much more than stickier tires and better brake pads (EBC Green Stuff works well and so does Performance Friction Metalic.
People are blinded by huge HP numbers, its sexy, what can I say...
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,041
Likes: 0
From: SOUTH Jersey
Isn't that the truth... I already have the bigger wheels and the EBC pads... next is the suspension issues.. at 85,000 miles the stock struts have just about had it. Next stop, coil overs (I tend to upgrade when I replace stuff)
