ballrub

Chapter Four (final chapter)

Now most of the problem complaints on our 2.0L applications are about the "tuning" of the Unichip! Is there a problem with it on U.S vehicles? I don't know personally, but that's why we are re-tuning Maurice's car (MtAngel) at no charge to him (except traveling expenses), and are willing to re-tune both of your cars (Tony/Bradley) at no charge (offer stands to anyone else out there with problems too), and had to wait until we received a port replicator for our laptop in order to use the Dastek software and "custom-tune" your cars at the end of this month. At that time we will be re-evaluating the "blanket" program for the Unichip on both 2.0L applications, and if necessary, will "fine tune" in smaller rpm increments, to help eliminate whatever "flat spots" or "bumps", along with any "way too rich" settings in the power and torque, and incorporate in all future kits. (All the complaints about it being too rich---maybe you should want us to make it a little too "lean" instead?---I don't think so!)

Finally, I would like to set the record straight as to what Alpine's "kits" are all about (especially to all you guys who love to "push the edge of the envelope"). Alpine Developments is in the business of building forced induction packages (mostly for the O.E.'s), that are designed and engineered to be bolted on to a stock engine, with no other modifications needed or required, and other than routine maintenance, can be forgotten about, and driven balls out without fear detonation, or any other problems! This means you can "beat the crap" out of them with no fear of "blowing anything up"! They are designed to meet and pass all smog laws, and not to exceed the built-in parameters of the factory fuel and timing. Plus, I don't think any of our applications will ever cost more than $3000 retail!!! You show me any other company that offers complete turbo or supercharger kits for less than $3000!!!! Show me another company that makes both turbos' and superchargers too, while you're at it!!!!

There is also no other aftermarket manufacturer who is attempting to do here in the U.S. what we are trying to do now (and have done in other countries)! Isuzu, Hyundai, Kia, and Nissan (NISMO), have all contacted us about providing applications that can be sold at the dealer level, and have offered to train their service people on installation, and match their factory warranties, so as to be installed at "selected" dealers as a dealer option on a brand new car (like TRD does, who we make kits for)! Can a Jackson Racing, Stillen, HKS, Greddy, or anybody else you can think of say that? (Steve Saleen is the only one that comes to my mind!)

Bottom line...if you are looking for a forced induction package of OE quality, reliability, and warranty, then you should definitely look at our products. If you are wanting to "push the edge" with a forced induction package, then I would suggest you buy someone else's package, or wait until we've developed our "stage one" and even possible "stage two" packages with again, a safe and reliable increase in power from our basic kits (which we are already working in collaboration with HKS, and possibly others on).

One final note for Random (Tony)...we are still on for bringing your cars in here the week of the 30th (maybe sooner), if you of are still of mind to do it (I hope my above statements didn't piss you off too much, but I just had to state my feelings on all of this "hullabaloo" about our products that only this website seems to have). All I know is I can't change what happened in the past, but I can affect the way we are going to do business here in the states, and feel that we have done (and are doing) everything in our power to take care of the existing problems with our kits, and remedy any problems encountered. I don't know how to be any more professional than that. Whether this has changed anyone's opinion of our company or not, or whether you guys "ban" me from this site for taking a shot at one of the moderators, only time will tell I guess. But...I just had to get that off of my chest! I feel much better now, and will go post some more jokes! (Whew!)

Stephen M. Belanger
Sales & Marketing
S.A. Alpine Developments, Inc.
7581 Acacia Avenue
Garden Grove, Ca. 92841
sbelanger@alpine-developments.us
www.alpine-developments.co.za
Ph (714) 379-8066
Fx (714) 379-8166

[ September 20, 2002, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: ballrub ]

Fast.Type-S

...put that in ur pipe and smoke it. Ballrub, props for the long informative posts.

Random

Ballrub-

Apparenly you are misinformed. I've sent you most of this via e-mail before, and was content to keep it off the forums, but since you have chosen to go public with it, so will I.

Alpine "lost" the baseline dyno runs on both the Supercharged and turbo charged cars. The ONLY dyno's they provided us with were AFTER dyno's. Those were 151 Supercharged, 162 Turbocharged. I still have them If you would like to see them. I would like to see the baseline figures you quote. The 169.9 HP "best" run was done on a Dynojet dyno, not Alpine's DynaPack Dyno. On the same dynojet dyno my baseline was 123, 169 with turbo. That's nowhere near the 80 HP claimed. Using alpines figures you misquote, that STILL not 80 HP. The Supercharged car baslined at 134, 152 with the supercharger.
Look at the wonderful detonation hole in this dyno
Dyno here
Is that the kind of kit/dyno quality we can expect from alpine?

What did I expect? Alpine CLAIMED to be wiling to work with me if I had any problems. That has NOT been the case. I have asked for them to attempt to fix the install, which they have done many times, with no success. The kit still does not make the power they claim, and it still does not have daily driver reliablity. it is NOWHERE NEAR OEM quality. Daily check engine lights, overheating, misfires, fouled plugs..etc..etc...

Your right, I apparently screwed up. I expected Alpine to stand behind their product and work with me to get the bugs worked out. Did I expect bugs, hell yes. Did I expect SOME difficultly in working with alpine to get them resolved, sure. I knew they were in south Africa, and that problem solving would require time, but I've had the kit for HOW LONG? After 3 retunes it still has problems. How long am I expected to wait?

They offered the turbo kit to me for $1900 installed. That was THEIR PRICE not mine. THEY CHOSE to do the install for me at that price.

I foolishly assumed the company was competent in installing THEIR OWN PRODUCT.

I foolishly assumed the company would choose a shop with the proper faciities/tools to install the kit.

Okay, so what you are telling me, is that I shouln't have trusted Alpine to install their own product, and I should not have trusted them to chose a proper shop to do the install/tuning at?

So If we can't trust alpine to install/tune the kit, how is someone paying $2600 for the kit supposed to do it done right?

Are we supposed to expect this current level of customer support out of Alpine? From your comments to me, you seem to feel Alpine has "bent over backwards" for me. So everyone else can expect LESS support than I have recieved? Based off the results I've gotten from the kit, and the Customer Service I've recieved from Alpine, I sure hope not.

Lastly...just WHAT has alpine done to bend over backwards for me? What unresonable demands have I made? Heck, what SIMPLE demands have I made that Alpine HONORED? My only REQUEST was that Alpine allow me to take the car to ANY AUTHORIZED unichip tuning facility to see if they could retune the car to elimnate the deonation and check engine lights. Alpine REFUSED this request. They have retuned my car, when they were in LA on 2 seperate occasions, but with minor improvement in the kits performance, and I have continued to ask for a 3rd party retuning. Even now, Alpine has refused that request again, and wants to try to retune the kit a 4th time. How am I being unresonable. You state that Alpine is so busy with all their other projects, that they don't have time to retune my car. FINE...let me take it elsewhere and have it retuned at your expense.

If Alpine cannot meet the September 30th deadline you originally gave me, I will have no choice but to finally DEMAND that the kit be tuned elsewhere.

In regards to the comments on the "quoted" figures from Alpines website.
I have talked with folks in Greece, UK, Germany, Australia, USA, Canada, Costa Rica, and Signapore. ALL were amazed at the dyno's posted on your website. ALL were horribly dissapointed with the performance if your kits. NONE of those customers were informed that the Dynos were engine ESTIMATES and not real numbers. All who contacted me were appaled when I told them the truth as to how the dyno figures were obtained.

Alpine claims the "estimates of engine HP based of a WHEEL dyno" are accurate. Please tell us how Alpine can produce ACCURATE engine ENGINE HP numbers, when no other company in the world cannot do so based off a WHEEL HP dyno. Why is it that every other company only uses WHEEL HP dyno's, but you choose to inflate your figures by using ESTIMATES of ENGINE HP figures? Is it just to inflate your figures?

Lastly, when I picked up my car after the turbo install, and I saw that it only made 162 HP, I asked John Conchie why it did not make the 300 HP as claimed on their website, he informed me "that's just marketing data. That's just the BEST they've ever done. They're going to update the website with REAL numbers soon". Yet it never happened. Now that the TRUTH about the dyno's is in the open, for people all over the world to see, again, it is claimed that the website will be changed. It hasn't happened yet.

The TRUTH is alpine sells more kits because of the inflated dynos, and they are not in a hurry to change it. They have been aware of customers being disatisfied for over a year, yet they never saw fit to change them, or even post the truth as to how the numbers were "created". If Alpine honestly feels that "estimates of engine HP" are accurate...why do they even use the word "Estimate"???? If Alpine is so confident that using "estimates of engine HP" is the "norm" around the world, why don't they state "estimate of engine hp" on their website?

Yes, there was a LARGE difference in baseline dyno's between the 2 engines. One was 3 months and 5000 miles old, one was 1.5 years and 20,000 miles old. We've seen Beta's dyno as low as 110 HP stock, and as high as 128 stock.

You ask how Can I condem the Alpine kit, then reccommend people buy it as a starter kit and modify it and void the Alpine warranty? Easy. The alpine warranty is worthless. It's not worth the paper it is printed on, however I've never seen it in print, or online anywhere. Please provide me with a copy of this warranty. Then I have a leg to stand on with some Legal action agaist Alpine. Why Do I reccomend modifying the kit? Easy. The folks who HAVE been able to get decent power out of the Alpine kit have done so by going with 4 larger injectors, not the 5 injector setup. Some have re-used the unichip, some have not. Everyone who has had the unichip retuned AT THEIR EXPENSE, has had good results. The problem is apparently the DESIGN alpines uses (5 injectors) and the TUNING of the Unichip as delivered by ALPINE. Do I have a beef with Alpine? Have you been READING the e-mails I've been sending you? Does the phrase "HELL YES" come to mind?

It's really simple. I've layed it out for you before, but I'll do it again. No on using 5 injectors has gotten the 80 HP you claim. No one using Alpine tuning of the unichip has gotten the HP you claim. Everyone who has installed an Alpine kit has complained of the following problems. Poor gas Mileage, Poor performance, Check Engine Light Errors for Misfires, Problems fitting the various parts of the kit.

If Alpine has a lifetime warranty, please tell me that Alpine is willing to work with Zoe to compensate her for the 1500 pounds UK she spent to get her supercharger installed. Please tell me you are willing to compenseate Jon for the problems he's had with his install. 2Uniq ???? What about my 2 kits? Is service once every 6-9 months considered normal for how Alpine Honors their "warranty"?

The kit is fine as a "starter" because the manifold and turbo are fine, but the Unichip needs to be retuned, and the 5 injector system should be dumped in favor of 4 equal size injectors. I cannot, and do not reccomend the kit to folks unless they are willing to do those steps. As such, I reccomend it as a "starter" kit. Lastly...I reccomend it because it is the ONLY option available. You can BET as soon as someone else out there comes up with a COMPLETE turbo kit, that matches/exceeds the PARTS in the Alpine kit, I will be reccomending that. BTW...I am NOT knocking the UniChip. The folks who have PAID to have the UniChip retuned have had better results, and the UniChip itself has a good reputation. It seems only the units that come "pre tuned" from Alpine, or are installed and tuned by Alpine seem to have the problem. I fully expect 90% of Maurice's problems to be solved by having his UniChip retuned by a 3rd party company.

[ September 23, 2002, 06:21 AM: Message edited by: Random ]

MechaniX_034

Damn this is gonna result in the mother of all Research and Development collaborations....... eek! eek! eek!

Lantra98

Seems like something that needs to be handled outside the board rolleyes.gif Ballrubs short Bio "Yawn" and Randoms cars not geting the specified numbers that were stated, instead of stating how many notches are in your belt "Ballrub" why not address the original topic " Turbo v.s. Supercharging " that is Justins' question and deal with Random off the board especially since you have sooo much knowledge of cars put it to work fix his car and make us " Young quick to jump on the Bandwagon types' believers in Alpines ability to produce a product worth buying ...

Thats what i'd do if had all those years of experience to speak of, because a job isn't truly done until the both parties are able to see the benifits of their labors...

My $.02


[ September 21, 2002, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: Lantra98 ]

justin

i did start a hell of a topic huh? oops... tongue.gif

Sinjinstar

Justin, look at what you started!!! J/K tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif

Aoshi

So does anyone have an idea of what other companies makes superchargers and turbos for hyundai's especially a 2003 tiburon

Random

Getting back on topic....

For the 2003 V6 tibby, there are no options at the moment. Alpine is working on a supercharger, as is a company in Korea (Thunder).

I've heard all kinds of rumors of "others" jumping in to tune the 2.7L...but those are the only ones that I have confirmed.

The I4 2003 is basically the same as the Gen1 and gen2. Kits made for the Beta1 would have to be re-worked slighly to work with the beta2 in the 2003, but it should be doable.

BTW..Balrub is right about the Eaton Superchargers. The style of Supercharger that C.A.P.A. sells is NOT used by OEMs. While the design does have inherent advantages, the noise of that particular type of supercharger (twin screw) prevents MOST people from wanting one in their car, so OEM's don't offer them. The Roots (eaton) style is a tried and true design. It's used on MANY cars. I was in NO WAY badmouthing the Alpine SC because it was an eaton. Rather I merely ment to state that the TwinScrew that CAPA offers does have an design advantage over ANY roots based unit.

[ September 21, 2002, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: Random ]

Solo-Baric

Ramdom, does capa's kit produce real numbers that they claim? Because you might know i've been searching for a good sc and capa has been in the back of my mind. do u know anyone to have their kit? or better yet anyone that has the kit on a us spec car?