Alright, makes sense. Now just to clarify. Does a standalone do that as well, without switching MAF senors? Or do you absolutely have to replace the MAF whether you go standalone or E-manage/SAFC?

 

a standalone gets rid of the stock ECU.. hence the term standalone. All the ones I know are MAP based so they eliminate the MAF completely.

E Manage can use the MAF or the MAF with a MAP but you cant get rid of the MAF because they stock ECU needs it.

S-AFC II you are stuck with MAF only, it doesnt have a port to plug a MAP into it

 

Perfect it is all so clear now, thanks Dweet.

 

You guys seem to have trouble understanding what a chipped ECU can do for you; I see this main argument over all the community:



A reprogrammed stock ECU is NOT a temporary workaround. First, ask you this; do you need to reprogram the ECU when you ad a CAI? Headers? Exhaust? 1.8L cam? Do you need to reprogram it when you put high octane in?

The job of a stock ecu is precisely meant to ADAPT to all possible environments and events. When you get a chip from say chiptorque, powerchip or whatever, what they usually do is just advance the timing, hence the need to run higher octane and thus the performance increase. If you get the chip when the car is bone stock, and you later ad a CAI, headers, a cam, all the bolt-ons, you do NOT need to have the ECU reprogrammed. The power gains you seen with the stock car will still apply to the modded car.

Why Hyundai doesn't put more advance at the factory? Simple, the engine MUST be running on 87. The stock ECU is FAR from being tuned for performance; it's tuned for the lowest common denominator (the car can be used with different grades of gaz, different altitude, different problems, etc, etc) and the lowest amount of emission possible. What the chipping companys do is that they try to tune the car more agressively, by advancing the timing and sometimes, when they're good, tuning the a/f curve (our tibs are pretty rich from the factory).

The stock ECU has SENSORS to adapt to changes. We're lucky to have MAFs regarding this; MAFs cars adapt way better than MAP cars on mods that changes the airflow.

A stand-alone ECU is not magical; the stock ECU itself is a "stand alone ECU", only not tunable (by the home user). Only, there ARE ways to get it tuned to our desires. How about turbo on the stock ECU, with no piggy-back, no FMU, nothing but the stock ECU to tune fuel and timing? wink1.gif

 

im going to have to disagree and this is why..
First if all they do is ADVANCE the timing thats bad bad bad for boost. You are just asking for detonation. Hence why when a knock sensor detects knock it RETARDS the timing. But you dont want to generically retard the timing either because that will result in power loss and maybe just the car running bad in general.

Also, there is more than just the timing apect of an ECU. It senses air intake, the amount of excess fuel going through the combustion system unburned, it controls the pulsewidths to the injectors etc...

So by those standards, if you are paying to have a ECU chipped, then its an even worse idea because you are spending buttloads of money to change only 1 aspect of the car and you still have no control over the A/F ratio of the car which should be the goal in the first place. Hence why the S-AFC II is so popular. It doesnt and cant change timing, but you get your gains out of changing the A/F ratio of the car by hacking the Mass Air Sensor signal to the ECU.

So I may be wrong about needing it to get it "rechipped" however if you are correct in what "rechipping" an ECU does its an even worse idea than what I had originally thought.

 

I didn't say you would have the same chip for "normal" bolt-on mods and a turbo setup wink1.gif A n/a car and a FI one are two different beasts.

Of course on a turbo setup you want to retard timing with load. That wasn't the point. The point was that it is possible to run a turbo off the stock tuned ECU.

There's no need to have "complete" control of the "A/F ratio" when the ECU is already tuned to be the more agressive it can. I said in my previous post that you CAN change the A/F directly in the stock ECU to get it, in our case, leaner since it's rich from the factory. An SAFC might have an attractive pricing, but if what you want is tune the car with it (versus just having a cool display wink1.gif), you need to get it on the dyno to get the A/F right. And dyno time costs money. If you want the A/F to stay the same, you'll HAVE to reset the ECU once in while too, or the stock ECU will "learn" how to get around the SAFC settings and get back to what it was before the SAFC. This is because the ECU is programmed to attain a certain A/F ratio for each RPM/load points, and has some means to adjust itself to get to those pre-programmed specs.

By changing the ECU itself, you assure that the ECU is in fact working WITH you, by actively trying to attain the A/F ratio you (ideally) specified. Can't get that with an SAFC.

The SAFC is a nice little machine; I do in fact have one. But it just can't compare to a properly tuned stock ECU wink1.gif

 

Yes you must reset the ECU to read the new AirFlow, or else it runs sh!tty.

I see what both of you are saying. Dweet you're arguing FI and Agarwal you're arguing NA with a touch of FI. But one big thing you missed is price man. You said it yourself, dyno time is expensive, not everyone can afford that kinda money. Put that together with modding the stock ECU, shipping, and downtime from not having an ECU! The SAFC is a cheaper alternative. Especially for people away from centres that have the ability to do the things listed above.

I understand both arguements but I'll go standalone or piggyback instead.

 

if this was the case a standalones would be pointless because an ECU would just be rechipped. trust me this is not the case because I do in fact have a "rechipped" ECU in my DSM. As do others, however people still run S-AFC's with the same setup I have. ECU's arent as cut and dry as you think they are. Because if they were the MAF and the MAP would behave the same but like you said in your first post the MAF "accepts" the "rechip" better than the MAP. So you pointed out yourself the whole flaw in your theory. An S-AFC can always be readjusted to compensate for a new bolt on or whatever. If the "chip" doesnt accept it as well and makes your car run richer than previously.

Also, ECU's have a limit on the size of injector they can control. Trust me I know this because I tried to run the Elantra ECU with the 450cc's that a turbo DSM's come stock with. It was running so rich it was drowning itself out at idle withou boost. So boost wasnt even a factor. Once I swapped wiring harnesses and ECU's it ran fine. I could have just put an S-AFC on the stock hyundai harness but I opted not to because that ECU didnt have a knock sensor on it.

Also like I said if you reprogram the ECU to retard timing you will lose power. There is no sense in reprogramming an ECU to retard timing. Just run colder plugs, high octane fuel and make sure the knock sensor is working and you'll be ok.

 

Hehe... sorry to say this, but it seems pointless arguing. I don't want to seem like the smart ass, but I probably know more about general ECU's, and more specifically about Hyundai ECU, than anybody else on this board (except maybe RealRace wink1.gif).

Fact is that I have disassembled the stock ECU, and found how to modify fuel and ignition, among other things. You CAN run ANY SIZE of injectors you want. Also, I don't *think* that stock ECU are "stock and dry", I know they are wink1.gif With a turbo setup, if you'd better pay 1300$ for a standalone + 400$ for installation and sensors + 400$ for tuning than say 500$ for a chip to have the get the same thing, it's your call wink1.gif

FACT is that you CAN do what you want with a stock ECU; you just need to know HOW to do it. The electronics in a stand alone and in a stock ECU are the same, only the software and the way to tune it changes. Once you know how to change the parameters of the stock ECU, you got what you'd call a "stand alone" wink1.gif

Anyway, on my side I'm not *arguing*; since I have some knowledge of how the actual ECU works and how it is programmed, I know what's possible and what's not. I say that you can run a turbo with bigger injectors off the stock ECU. I say that advancing the timing on a car with all the bolt-ons and running higher octane is a good way to have more power, as well as on a stock car. I say that when you ad a bolt-on mod to your car with a chipped ECU, you certainly doesn't need to have it rechipped to take advantage of the mod. I say that when you know how to change the parameters of the stock ECU, you can, in fact, do what you want with it.

 

you say but do you have any proof? i'd like to see some dynos.. and some schematics. Im sure I can figure them out. I work on a $2,800,000 radar that uses encryption. Electronics is my specialty as well.
Id like to see a stock hyundai ECU handle a set of 660cc's.. If $500 is the solution then why do all the korean dragsters use stand alones? Is it because they like wasting money? Or because they like doing it the right way. Like I said my DSM ECU is chipped. http://www.technomotive.com/prod/eprom/stages.shtml
I have the stage 3 in my elantra.

However people with this setup still use an S-AFC. Why? because chipping isnt enough to fine tune the fuel map. I feel like Im talking to a wall because you keep saying it can do this, it can do that yet provide no proof.
Anyways the only person I know that has a powerchip is Leadfoot and so far his car cant even run right with it. Sounds like a good plan to me :roll: