Fair enough. I have worked as a cashier, I know how 'intelligent' the masses are. But you say assertion...then fact, which is it? Well I can tell you it is an assertion, because I know plenty of intelligent people who take religion serious, making that a non-fact. Though I can understand you graph and that it is the exception, not the norm.





If only people out there believed what you said.... I am sure there are intelligent people who are in line with that. But I have met plenty of people who think science is a fact, and if some smart guy said something 'scientificy' it is a fact and all who disagree are stupid.



While thankfully no scientist kill on this premise, many do persecute those who don't believe it. They see evolution as fact, if you say different or attempt to debate, you are a moron, and unintelligent, regardless of the content supplied. I think many (not you) are scared that religions might be correct, don't want to be accountable to a higher God and put all their faith in science, and if you attempt to shake that faith, they lash out. Just like many religious put their faith in their religions and if you try to shake their faith, they lash out. When you attack a large part of who someone is, they generally get defensive. But this is where religion and God becomes different. It is difficult to keep using that word, I am not religious, I don't like traditions of man for traditions sake. Though many traditions have meaning behind them so I do some of them for their meaning. But you can't shake my God, He is my foundation, that is why I don't lash out, I am not worried about anything anyone says, it doesn't chance who my God is. It seems you are somewhat similar with science, who know what you know, you don't simply follow it because of what others say, and you don't know what you don't know. I respect that.







**Have you read it unbiased? It kind of sounds like your mind is made up. Like I said about Joe Rogan, you can't use non-Bible to discredit the Bible. First of all lets look at this objectively agreeing with the Bible, and it is correct. The acts of love FAR exceeds the acts of 'vengefulness'. Though sure, through your biases vengeful agenda, I agree with you. But let’s put out some facts (remember in this paragraph, you agree with every word in the Bible as fact). God created the world and everything, then created man to have a relationship with Him. Man was in charge of all creation, it was all for him, animals to eat, plants to eat and enjoy the beauty, start to enjoy the beauty etc. Man only knew good. Then God saw man enjoyed God, but was also lonely, so God created women. Then man sinned. Fact, God is holy and without sin, can't be near sin. Man gets separated from God. Fact, the punishment for sin is eternal separation from God (the real punishment) and fire. God gave man free will, if He wanted robots, he could have made them, but something isn't satisfying about having a robot do what you program, rather to enjoy watching them chose to do what is right when given the choice. Man was stupid, it just started out, so they did many things that hurt them. they didn't have history to learn from or too much wisdom or knowledge. Murder for example. If the world revolved around you and your goal is to enjoy it, and someone gets in your way hindering this, you kill them, too easy. The problem is what if they think that about you and kill you, or your son who you love? Murder is selfish and not good for humanity. You would think this is simple, but apparently not. That is why there were 10 commandments, basic rules to help man out. Even with these rules, people still killed others, so still not that simple of a rule apparently. But let’s say your group of people 'Israelites' were doing good, or you wanted them to be the ones to set the example to show others how to live. Let’s say they agree that sin/murder is bad, great. But what happens when they get around another society, and this society makes sin/murder look prosperous. This guy killed his way to be king. Basically showing them as long as you don't get caught, it is ok. Basically this other society shows how sin is so enticing. It is still bad mind you, but it looks so good, temptation. God loves us right, wants us to live the best life ever (apart from Him), that is why He sent commandments. So these people try and make sin enticing and make you ruin your lives and you welcome it? Kill them, don't associate with them. And they did. But then the Israelites (chosen ones of God to be an example for humanity) started doing these things that others were killed for. They were infected from the inside, they stole, they murdered etc. These are the chosen ones, it is frustrating and sad when your 'child' doesn’t do as you trained them to do right? You punish them right? I don't know if you read this? https://www.hyundaiaftermarket.org/f...r-children-in/ Punishment sucks, it hurts the parent more than the kid. Do you still not get angry? That is ok/normal. Though acting out in this anger is wrong, it is a sin. Again, it isn't just bad because it is a sin, it is a sin because it is bad, again, sin is something that ruins life for you. Anger leads sinful humans to do things they regret, it clouds the mind, I am sure you can agree with me there? You can see God acts quite like the 'good parent'. A fine line from controlling to I don't care. Well eventually, the 'chosen ones' are indiscernible from the rest. One side note, the great thing as that God was still the creator and provider for all mankind, loving us all. Many who would seek God would find Him and his blessings, even non-Israelites, God gave rain and provided crops to the good and the bad. But anywho, this is why Israelites could not associate with non-Israelites, they would corrupt them. The intent behind that anyways. Since they were corrupt anyways, God had it. All of his precious humans were perishing and living horrible lives, not the great fulfilled lives they would have if they simply followed some common sense simple commandments. So God wanted to 'abolish' the law, though the Bible says fulfill the law. As again, the intent of the law was so simple, it was how to have a fulfilling life. Though we learned the law was impossible to follow, and we needed Jesus's help. God who loved man so much, He wanted them to live life to its fullest as He intended. He had a Son, living with Him in glory ruling by His side. He decided to send His Son to this wretched place called earth, where there is murder and theft and hate and deceitfulness and pain, for a few reasons. First lambs without blemish were used to atone for the sins of the Israelites. SO when Jesus came, He would be without sin, to be that blameless lamb and sacrifice. And two, to come as a human and understand the struggles we face so that when we need help, we can ask for His help, knowing He overcame it, He can help us overcome. And God loved all mankind. Not just his 'chosen ones the Israelites', He chose them to be an example and they failed, now all are His chosen ones, He came to earth to save all of us. One to forgive us of those sins, and two, to help us from sinning again. As Jesus said "I have come that they may have life, and live it to its fullest". The common sense of no murder (insert sin here) because it is bad for us didn't work, making it a law didn't work, so Jesus came to help us not sin. If you have accepted this fact, then Jesus covers us with His blood, atoning for our sins, so when God looks at us, instead of seeing man covered in sin living a wretched life attempting and failing at these simple common sense rules, He sees His Son Jesus. We are now justified from our sin as if we never have, and because of that, we are allowed to have a relationship with God again. And every sin from now on isn't seen by God, God only sees 'the cover of Jesus' on us. Though because of this great love and sacrifice, we want to honor God and live as He intended in the first place...by not sinning, and we realize that sinning only hurts ourselves. Though at the tempting times, it is hard to see the truth, we are blinded by the lies and the immediate gratification that we would get from the sin and fail to see the long term detriment it has. And this was all free for us, if we ask for it. And when we die, being that we chose to have a relationship with God here, we can continue this relationship with God in heaven. There is no more murder or theft or pain or deceitfulness or hurt, because we all are without sin, our human sinful bodies dead, raised again with our spiritual bodies that understand this simple concept that sin is bad for us, but that temptation is gone. That is why heaven will be awesome, it is an eternity of a fulfilled life as God intended in the first place. And the bad part of hell is separation from God, you are free to live in your sin as is everyone. There will be pain and suffering from each other and Satan, the father of sin, that is the worst part. And the fire will suck too. Fire is used to purify things in this world, that is why fire will be used in attempt to purify the sin of man, though it can't that is why an eternity of it. God never sends anyone to hell just like a judge never sends anyone to jail. If you commit a crime a punishment can be jail, if you sin you go to hell, that is just a fact (again Biblical fact, I am not trying to say an earthly or scientific fact). God wants to save man from hell. Jesus did another thing, showed us how to live, live like His Father, in Love like His Father. Being that God did create us, He knows what is best for us and how we work. So Jesus meet the needs of man (man is general term for humans), and related with them and loved them. Told them if His Father will that they live a fulfilling life, and if they wanted it, great, He was happy to tell them how, if not, moving on, you have free will. Jesus got angry and the religious type who got wrapped up in man’s traditions and laws and forget completely about its intent. They killed those not abiding by the law, from a standpoint of pride and it was the law, they are chosen, they must uphold the law. Which they couldn't even uphold themselves, because of temptation and pride and power and greed. These people poisoning God children, Jesus was furious at them. **



Unfortunately, when people read the Bible with a bias that God is bad and mean, they see vengeance and wrath for no reason, then believe some lie (not sure where it came from) that God sends people to hell that don't agree with Him. This sin is fun and the Bible is a kill joy.



Or also unfortunate, people read the Bible or are taught by men what it says (who are clueless themselves) read, the prideful, Bible is correct, all are flawed, we are chosen ones, we must eradicate those others because the law says so (when they don't even have a clue what the intent of the law was or the God who made those laws).



Jesus made it so simple for us, His lifestyle shows the entire purpose of the Bible and fulfills the law, EVERYTHING in the Bible can be tied back to the life of Jesus, selfless love, the love of God shown to man. A Christian is supposed to be a follower of Jesus.....Unfortunately, many of them need a new word, a religious word, a follower of man and rules, strict, prideful, selfish.





I hope you read that, even if you don't agree, I am curious to know if you have ever heard the Bible put like that, and does that objectively make sense to you? Completely disregarding what man has shown you or religious groups have perverted it to be. I am only going to get 3 hours of sleep tonight (I saw you replied and read what I said and I had to read yours as well), but I could care less, that above is my whole purpose in life, sharing with those who have never heard the word. Giving them a chance. If they believe it, it is up to them, but someone has to tell (even better to show this love of God through our lives) them this. Is anything I said untue/contrary to the Bible that you can point out? Has your objective opion changed to at least see the 'allure' and not so much the 'distaste' for this God? The problem with your 'telling of the Bible' is where many atheist 'get a hold' on arguemtns calling the Bible contradictory, God is wrathful and God loves ect. but as you read, it never once contradicts itself, it actually compliments and re-affirms itself many times.





Which speaking of your links...That can also been seen both ways. Did these things adapt to insane surroundings? Or were they created for the known harshness that would be there? Which also brings up another interesting question. If things can adapt to such extremes, why isn't there life on other planets? How have we not discovered it yet with all our technology? Why isn't there life on the moon? If it is so easy to adapt, every planet has had a few billions of years, shouldn't something have happened all planets? If water or air isn't needed. Shouldn't there be some nitrogen breathing, -300f living creatures? Why can't they adapt? Why just on earth have living creatures adapted? If anything adaptation and evolution works against science being that that has only occurred here.









I will share something personal... I told this to my wife. Jesus gave an example and at one point said "not my will but your be done". I end all my prayers with this. If you like I could go MUCH more in depth with that (what is the point of praying then etc.) but to try and be short for now.... She prays for me to come home early (from this deployment). I tell her to end with that or at least to believe that in her heart and mean it. Leys say God is genie in a bottle type and answers that prayer, how can I come home early? Well, I could have a loved one die, that would be a simple way. Let’s say genie answers that pray, and bam, loved one dies, but I was brought home. They asked out of ignorance, they didn’t' know what is best for the world, the big picture, they saw the small picture, their pain, and wanted it alleviated and in mistake cause huge pain for others. Or let’s say God sends a message the president, a dream or vision to bring just me home. Bam, I'm home in a week, and if I was here, I was going to support a mission to save lives, I wasn't there, I didn't save those lives, again, selfish small picture screws up the big picture. I don't want my selfish needs or wants to screw up God's will, God knows in my heart I want His perfect will done.



Another personal.. My mom who does have cancer again, who is also a devout follower. I pray for Gods will done still, even if that means her death. I only see the small picture, I don't know God's will, I have faith it is good. How do I know a person who sees my faith might not come to know God through my faith? Good can come from bad. Maybe Gods will was to have my mom raise me, and then die? I am thankful for that time He gave me with her. He didn't have to, I could have been without a mom, she could have died earlier? It is so difficult to explain the concept of big picture, small picture. I guess it really comes down to faith in that perfect big picture.



I have used this example before. A kid who gets punished, they see it as a bad thing, the parent sees it as a good thing and how it can train their kid to not do that bad thing that might hurt themselves. Like spanking a kid who runs across the street without looking both ways first. The parent wants this great memory device known as pain to trigger the kids head to save the kids life. The kid sees a mean parent who hurt them. The parent sees the big picture, the kid doesn't.



My point is God doesn’t "cause atrocities to happen to His followers". A parent that loves, chastises (A Bible verse). Maybe it is a punishment? Maybe it is another reason which we can't comprehend as 'stupid kids'. The kid doesn't think he is stupid, he just wants to get from one side to the other, but compared to the one who sees the big picture, he is foolish, and could get himself killed. In fact there are many times when God saved His followers AND non-followers. How many people have you heard from the pentagon (I lived in the area and knew of many, Christian and non) who parents didn’t' go to work that day? A car broke down, felt sick, had a scheduled vacation? Sure it is a blessing to His followers, but to the non, it is a blessing to, another change to get to know Him and live a more fulfilling life and not be separated from God forever because they chose not to follow.



Maybe my last purpose in life is to tell you that above? Or some one else? Maybe God has more in stor for me? I know my wife would be sad and mourne, which is normal and good human emotion. But she would move on, heal, and thank God for the wonderful but short time she had with me, and praise God for His goodness and keep showing God'd love to others so they might have the same fulfilling life she has with God.







I'm sorry to hear that (the first part) and I respect how you raised her and allow her to make her own decisions and not throw the baby out with the bathwater or label all guns bad because one was used to shoot or label all Christians bad because of a few (who may or may not have even been Christians, that is a follower of Christ, rather a follower of man). That is why it is difficult to say Christians even, so many thing because they go to church or do some good things or because their parents where, they are a Christian. I am not the 'rule maker', but according to the book they claim to believe it, they are not. Just as a guy who cuts into people and knows a few things about the body isn't a surgeon or a doctor, following the rules and qualifications makes you a doctor. The problem is that can be seen, easily. Knowing if someone is a real Christian (according to the Bible) isn’t' quite as easy, though it does say you should be able to tell a tree by its fruits.









I don't have a TLR ....I will try though lol. If you read anything I would have it be the part surrounded by "**"



TL;DR



I like your take on science.



Have you considered your view of the Bible to be biased? Consider **this**



Your links could go both ways



Why bad things are caused? They aren't, bad is a perception.

 

Depicting it is one thing, but for a massive amount of the populous to accept it as a factual event is another.

 

You didn't say, "accept as a factual event". You said "illogical". It was obviously not "illogical" if people were imagining ways it could happen and then depicting it in artwork.

 

I'll just quote that, although I did read everything.



Given that God's power is infinite, and that he has a master plan, why would the master plan require things like the holocaust, slavery, or the various destructive natural disasters? Sounds like a pretty bad plan. If I was a city planner and made a plan requiring deaths and destruction I would be fired.



It sounds like a "He beats me because he loves me." sort of battered woman mentality to me. Which in most cases most people would agree that is an unhealthy outlook on life with an abusive person.



Sorry but you haven't swayed me. I respect the way you've tried and I understand where you're coming from and appreciate what you're genuinely trying to do. Because of my outlook on these things I talk to people about religion regularly. The Jehovah's Witnesses quit coming to my house because they were frustrated that I was nice to them and let them talk as long as they wanted but they couldn't answer my questions to my satisfaction or get me to go to their church. In my life I encounter far too many people from the bottom right corner of the graph I posted and very few from the upper right. You do appear to qualify as an upper-righter, but I've encountered only a handful of your type for the hundreds of lower-righters.



My view on the God of the Bible is certainly biased. I'm a firm believer in holding someone responsible for the bad things they do regardless of any good that they've also done. The whole premise of God being good doesn't make sense to me based on the world around us. If nothing else, creating us with the inherent flaws that we have and then asking us to abide by rules that are basically impossible to live by (can you point at a single non-sinner amongst the billions of people on Earth?) is downright cruel. This isn't just about free will. This is about giving you free will, plus a strong predisposition to go against these rules.



Basically, the whole Biblical scenario doesn't make any sense at all. From creation to now. The Bible is also a terrible book, so no I haven't sat down and read it. I have TRIED to, but it's terrible and not designed to sit down and read. It's like reading an insanely long essay written by an OCD ADHD middle schooler.

 

You should read it. The Judeo-Christian God is a violent a**hole.

He's like that room mate that we all wanted to evict, but his antics made him a lovable scamp.

 

one of my favorite passages from the book of the loving god

 

First of all, I will say that I can't say for sure, only God knows, but I can give my thoughts on it...



God's power isn't infinite, nowhere in the Bible does it say it is, quite the opposite, He can't sin. If I have you keys to my car and said you drive it anywhere, can you go to the center of the earth, or the moon? Was I lying to you? Know, you have to put some common since into the context. When people are praising God or attempting to explain Him with our simple minds, we say things like all powerful etc., because He is really powerful, but He can't do the impossible, He can't make parallel lines touch (that would then change the definition of the lines and they would no longer be parallel). Sure he could alter perception etc. and make them touch, but the second the actually touch, they aren't parallel anymore, there for you would have touching lines, not parallel lines touching. Another thing He can't control is our will, it is our free will, Is it really free will if you are 'controlled' too much?



So let’s say you are a city planner with trillions and whatnot. What makes a good city? You could give everyone a bunch of money so no one has to work.... But then your education would probably fall apart and ingenuity, as things are invented out of necessity, which you really have none. So you city would be laxed, but not necessarily successful. Let’s say you do nothing and let the people run it (anarchy), there would be crimes and again probably not much work. So let’s say you assign jobs, pay people for their work and contributions, people have a luxurious life if they work for it, and you have smart people and you have a great city. Who else is allowed in your city, anyone? What about the lazy guy that doesn’t appear to contribute much or the handicapped? Do you kick them out? What about the guy who tried hard but wasn't good at his job and the building he built collapsed? Or the guy that purposely slacked to make more money and the building collapsed killing others? Do you kick them out? Maybe kill them before they have a chance to screw up, since you also can see the future, and you knew they would screw up. So the second they are born, you tell their mother how bad they will be and then take them and kill them? Happy city? Your kids are being seemingly randomly taken and killed? Maybe a guy who was fighting with his neighbor now joins his neighbor to help pull the rubble off of the other people? Puts into perspective life and how quibbling is stupid over some things and they live a happier life? Can good happen from bad?



I will attempt to sum up a Bible story for you, but if you want to read it, it is found in Genesis 37-50. I agree the Bible can't exactly be read like a novel, though that story can. But it starts with a Jacob, who has 12 sons (and Jacob changes his name to Israel and these are the beginnings of the 12 tribes of Israel). One of them is named Joseph. He finds favor with His father for whatever reason, and gets a nice coat of many colors. His brothers become jealous, and ponder killing him, but instead end up selling him and telling their dad he was eaten by a wild animal. Joseph who was doing God's will, pleasing his father, is now what appears to be punished and sold into slavery. Being a man of God, he has good work ethic etc. and finds favor with his maser and soon becomes head servant. Well the master's wife likes him too and wants a piece of him. Joseph knowing this is wrong refuses, when she grabs his clothes, he runs away, ripping the clothes off. She calls the guards and says attempted rape, he flied when I called, and here is his clothes. Then Joseph goes from head servant, to prison. Seems fair right, honor God, please God, and get punished and thrown into jail??? But still, Joseph loves God and pleases Him. He again finds favor in the guards, and God gives him the gift to interpret dreams. Later on, the Pharaoh has dreams, none of his wise men can interpret it, then the Pharaoh gets wind of Joseph's gift. Calls him out of prison, tell him the dream, Joseph interprets it correctly, and is put in second in command of Egypt. The dream was about a famine to occur after 6 years of good food. So knowing this, Pharaoh stores up food and when the famine hits, Egypt is sitting pretty. But not so much for the surrounding lands. Many travel to Egypt for food, and that is how the Israelites moved to Egypt and grew in number...which became too great of number and that is why Pharaoh started killing them and then Moses and the great Exodus occurs. But towards the end of the Book of Genesis, Jacob and his brothers are part of the people starving to death. Joseph does not rub it in their faces or seek vengeance for selling him to slavery when he was a very young boy which had to be scary. Instead, he says this in Genesis 50:20 "20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."



So looking from a close minded perspective, why did God allow a godly man to suffer so much? To save the lives of thousands. Why did the holocaust occur? I don't know, I can speculate, but I don't know for sure. Slavery? Slavery isn't bad, man is corrupt, and makes is nearly unbearable. Slavery or servant hood was quite nice actually. You were poor, had no skill or intelligence, you could starve to death, or work for a man, instead of wages, he paid you a place to live and food to eat. Many let you go after some amount of years or so with money or a place to stay giving you and your family a chance at life. Though greedy man thought to himself, I could give this guy away...or I could keep him and force him to keep doing this work for me making me richer! Natural disasters... This isn’t' from the Bible, it is thoughts I have had in attempt to give logic to it, though I know I have a simple mind and I can't really understand much like that kid and the dad analogy. I know that God is good and just, that is where my faith is, so I though I can't understand (like ta child getting punished) doesn't mean there isn’t' a good answer. Some possible 'reasons'... He created laws of nature, set the ball rolling per se, it's going to keep rolling. The butterfly effect, if God changed one thing it would affect others within the confines of our laws of physics. Maybe the volcano being allowed to erupt, prevents the earth from exploding? Maybe hurricanes is the laws correcting out pollution, maybe they are keeping us alive? Tornadoes, low pressure, high pressure, cyclonic action, physics. If those conditions were met and a tornado didn't occur, what would the laws as we know it be? Ever changing, confusing us and everything in nature. I see it as a ball rolling, it is going to go downhill, and you might get in the way of it. But knowing God is merciful, there are many times that instead of altering that balls path, He can alter your path so you aren't there at that time. Like I said with 9/11 and people not going in. Why were some spared and not others? I can't answer that, again that really boils down to faith, but faith based on a loving and just God, and faith based on knowing I can't know or comprehend everything, much like a child can't comprehend all their punishments and see them as mean but it is meant from the greater good. Nor could Joseph comprehend, and could have thought God was being unfair, but instead putting faith in God as opposed to logic in men, saves thousands.

God created us to have a relationship with Him, when we sinned and were separated, we now have this void we all want/need filled. God can use disasters and health ailments to allow us to realize this and bring us to Him, because that is what is good for us...even if we don't realize it. God didn't require the holocaust, but he can use it for the greater good. Man started the holocaust, not God, but what men means for evil, God can mean for good. So why didn't God just kill Hitler at birth? Who is to say that another one wouldn't rise, maybe worse and wasn't stopped? Where is the line drawn? Should God kill every man that is responsible for 10 deaths, or 100 or 1000? Jesus died for Hitler too, we are all sinners, apart from God, living in sin, doing things that aren’t good for others. What about the man that is 'cool' and sleeps with 20 women, one night stands and completely ruins their self-image? What about the CEO that deals harshly to his employees and charges too much, leading some to depression or drinking or killing? What about the one who taught Hitler? Where do you draw the line? We are all sinners, none of us doing any good for mankind, that is why God sees us all as filthy rags, all sin the same, we can't do it ourselves, we need Jesus.



Sure, he could have just not had a famine. But who knows how that would have screwed up the world, the crops, the earth. Or God could have just made it so plants can always grow awesome everywhere, again changing our laws of physics and nature and herb ology and who knows what else, only to make like 'too easy' and have your rich city scenario again, where temporary too good, turns to long term not good. So he let that ball roll and instead proved man rescue from that famine. Pharaoh had free will, he could or couldn't let God's people go. God used that to demonstrate His power over all the god's of the Egyptians. Every one of the plagues were adverse to the Egyptian gods. This is an example of basically altering the balls path, there was still free will, but strong influence to do a specific choice. Perhaps the Americans and their strength of their military was God's 'plagues' against the Germans? Maybe God had enough finally and decided to alter that balls path again.



You could control your kid, and they might never get into trouble at school, maybe that is through fear and pain. But when they move out, what do you think will happen then? They have no more rules, never learned to think for themselves or have responsibility. Seems great in the short term, they don't get into trouble in school. But long term that screws them up. I don't want to go too far off topic, but this is why I can't stand Obama. He is so short term in his thinking, and in the short term, sure, life will be great, no rich CEOs, free health care, no more poor, we all share money...But then long term when we can't afford to provide that care, the govt collapses, and no one wants to be a CEO because your salary is capped, no ingenuity, inventions, no one working entry level, we get paid to not do work. Spreading the wealth is an excellent short term idea, but in the long term, won't last and will be a disaster. So maybe short term no volcanoes and unlimited food with no effort and no hurricanes etc. are good, but not in the long term. It is the trials and tribulations we go through that make us who we are, give us character. In the Bible after Paul was tortured many times, shiprecked a bunch, and imprisoned, he said "Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters,whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything." If you never tore your muscles when working out, they would never grown, if you didn’t wither away/remove material from wood (sanding) it would be rough, if you never removed iron, you couldn't make a knife, if you never got dirty or sick as a kid, you might die as an adult with a weak immune system. Again perception, you see so many things as bad that aren't, therefor you see the Bible as full of bad things. Many see death as unfair, I see it as their time was us, and thankful for that time I was given. Sure it sucks while you are going through the storm, the muscle is tearing, but afterwards when you are stronger, it is enjoyable. Again the short term vs. long term. Short term, the Bible can look bleak and stormy, but long term, you see the sunshine. I think God created us with 'weaknesses' to lead us to Him. God could have created us with titanium bones, but blood doesn’t work like that, so again, changing everything. But let’s say we had 'super power health'. We don't need God, we don't need Him for food, nor for health, or anything right? If we don't think we need God, we will never find Him, nor be able to fill that void in our lives created when we were separated from him. God has blessed me with some wisdom and intelligence and good health, and I am thankful for that, which also drives me to God, but has I not known Him, it wouldn't make me thankful for Him. We have flaws and disasters and fears and things that lead us to God, not because He needs us, but because we need Him.





Common, there is a clear different between punishment and chastened (for the good of the subject) and beating out of anger or selfish reasons. Abuse is out of anger or self-loathing or pride or control. Punishment is out of love. Ignoring them shows there is no love, and they are not worth your time. Again a fine line between controlling (whether it is too many rules or beating someone) side of the spectrum and "I don't care" side of the spectrum.





Thanks lol. I am not trying to sway you or convert you, just show God's love, and share with you that from the Bible, show you what the Bible says, not what people have perverted it to say to control the masses. I wouldn't treat you any different regardless of your faith in God, it is up to you, my job is to show God's love to man, honoring Him, and to tell others of this if they don't know about it, regardless of what anyone choses to do with it.



If you didn't ask any more questions or say something coutner to what the Bible says I wouldn't keep at it like the JW. I would stop coming to your house too. Not because of anger or defeat or anything, but there are others that I can use my time to tell them about or help. I would still help you if you needed something and/or become a friend if you needed/wanted one and we had enough in commmon, but unless prompted, I wouldn't share God with you other than through my actions and if you don't want me there, I would stop comming more out of respect. Defeat would imply a goal of converting you, though again, my goal is what the Bible says which is simply sharing with those who don't know, and loving others, so I would call it mission complete regardless of you wanting me to return.





You can hold people responsible for the bad they do, or forgive them, it’s up to you. Thankfully God is merciful and forgives us and sent His Son to die for us, or I would be forever seperated from God in Hell. Though bad is also perception/relative (story of Joseph). God didn't create us with an inherent flaw, He created us perfect, in His image. It was man’s choice sin, but when he did, then he was fallen or flawed. Again, God never asked us to abide by rules that are impossible. He did command rules to us in attempt to help us help ourselves. It behooves us to follow the rules, our life would turn out better. You are under the Pharisees logic of rules, and following them and good and bad. God put rules there to help us, like a parent puts out a rule to look both ways before crossing the street. It is "basically impossible" to follow that rule as a kid. Not because we are rebellious, but we don't really have that much logic at that time in life, what is going on in our head is "hey, a flat surface with a goal on the other side, let’s get there as fast as possible! FUN!" lol. It isn't like parents want their kid to break a law, so put in place a law that is impossible. The parent loves the kid, doesn't want them to get ran over and hurt or killed, but sometimes the law isn't enough. So training can be a way to help, or keep them on a 'leash' (supervision basically) punishment if they attempt to cross without looking (aka break your rule). God put these commandments and rules to help us, and to help us even more, sent His only Son to die for us. So that isn't exactly "creating us with flaws and asking us to abide by rules we can't". It is creating us perfectly, and providing solutions for our screw ups out of love.



That is why I am not a fan of many churches as they preach right and wrong, and sin like the Pharisees. They can teach the Bible and what it says about certain scenarios and how to act if you want to live as God intended for us to with a fulfilling life.





Well, yea, it isn't a novel, that is for sure. But if you read a men’s health magazine, it isn't a great novel either, but it can have good tips in their right? The Bible is full of wisdom, there is also much history in it, it kind of provides a background for now, everything I have explained to you about why commandments and how God loves and how we keep screwing up, yet He still loves us. A famous acronym is Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. An owner’s manual if you will, giving you wisdom and advice on how to live a fulfilling life, from the God who created us. But it isn't really meant to be read like a novel, from beginning to end. A great place to start is the first four books of the new testament, the gospels, they all chronicle the life of Jesus. EVERYTHING can be tied to those books, even one of them. The OT explains for the need for Jesus and why we were created in the first place, and the rest of the NT is about how we need to live as Jesus did. Much of my rants in other threads whether it is how to be a good parent or whatever it is, all of that wisdom comes from the Bible, I certainly didn't come up with that. It basically came from watching God, like the perfect parent, that fine line between full control, and no control.







A book of the loving God....yes, but this was an act of man. Cain murdered Able in the book of a loving God...that doens't mean everything in the book is what God wants us to do, it is put out pretty clearly what He wants us to do, and even gives us a living example of that. I can't say for sure why it was put in there or what we can get from it. Maybe it was to show us that even a man of God can have burst of anger and act wrongly. Maybe that is why later is tells us to turn the other cheek or "vengeance is mine" or "hash words stir up wrath, but a gentle tongue turns away wrath" or "Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, for man's anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires." or "A fool gives full vent to his anger, but a wise man keeps himself under control." or "A patient man has great understanding, but a quick-tempered man displays folly."



I am not saying it is good, nor did God, it doesn't even say if he was punished for that or how harshly to teach him.... But it is kind of comforting knowing such a godly man can screw up, kind of takes pressure off. But also shows how anger can be bad, it can even make a man like that slip up, I should probably be very careful with anger, and learn to control it. Who knows what bad happened to Elisha from this? Maybe the parents of these children wanted to seek vengeance and he nearly escaped after losing an arm. There are consequences to sin, again, it is not best for us, that is why laws where there to help us. Though I am just speculating, it doesn't say this, again, I don't know for sure, but a possibility.



Maybe if I hadn't read that verse you provided I would just see the verses above as 'good Bible verses'. Now I am able to see this great example of folly, folly that occurred to a godly man so quickly and easily, I really need to take the scriptures/wisdom/advice more seriously.

 

double post