John...the people who stayed weren't people who were thinking "Well heck, it's just a storm...I bet we can make it, let's stay".

Those who stayed did not do so because of choice, they did so because they had no means of getting out. The people who stayed behind and were hit the hardest by this were the people who were too poor to get out, too sick, too old, etc.

The gov't both federal and local provided them no means and/or assistance of getting out. There were no busses to take them out of harms way, no taxis, no planes, no nothing. The gov't issued a warning suggesting people to get out, and the ones who could afford to and had the means to did, the ones that couldn't afford to and had no means to simply couldn't, though they wished more than anything they could. No one wanted to stay.

Next time you're out in public, take a look at the people you see. We on the forums obviously have cars and even the poorest of us here have at least some means of evacuatiing our states if we had to. But think about all the elderly people who live alone, all the poor people who take the bus everywhere because they can't afford a car. All the peolple in care homes who have no means of transportation and no one to help them get out.

That's why this is such a big issue. Poor people who had no way to get out were given no assitance in doing so, and then once they were stuck there, with nothing left and their homes destroyed, they STILL were provided no help. While they sat there and starved, looked for clothes, George Bush was turning down money and help offered from other countries. While people died with no one to help them live, our so called president continued to enjoy his vacation as if nothing was wrong. Not until mass criticism from other foriegn leaders, the media, and the rest of the country did Bush decide to come home from vacation (three days later, keep in mind) and re-considered the previous offers and finally began accepting them.

When the poor people were needing help the most, it was turned down, and then later provided with the least bit of haste. The gov't simply did not care to help in a timely way.

It just so happens that the great majority of the poor people who were left behind are black; that is where the racial issues come from. So basically it comes down to two things:

Either the gov't doesn't care about black people, or the gov't doesn't care about poor people. It's one of the two - you can;t dare say it's neither.

Hell...the gov't claims they didn't even know people were being horded in the stadium, starving without help, while the rest of us knew this long ago. Do you really think the national gov't was REALLY the last in line to be informed about this crisis?

Even worse, the poor people who are so neglected are typically the ones who vote republican and vote for such a gov't. It's sad, heart breaking, and it's time for America to wake up.

 

Hey guys have you tried to get out of a big city whens theyres a big hurricane comming? Its almost impossible when francis, i think, was comming didnt hit us hard about 6 years ago it was a cat 5 and really wide as i remember we tried to get out but after 2 hrs or so and we werent even 5 miles away from our house we said whatever and stayed its really hard to get out of a big city if everyone else is trying to leave to prolly more of a chance of an accident but jax isnt built below the sea level and it is kinda in land so we usually dont get hit full force, last year we lost shingles on a side of the roof and had no power for over a week really bad to work on putting shingles back on then comming in to a 90 degree house

 

Deleted, isn't worht bickering over.

 

Quite a few of them actually were. I see them on the news every day, still refusing to leave.



Sure they did. The 3,000 school and city buses sitting in the parking areas could have got everyone out. The mayor and the Governor refused to use them though. EVERYONE could have got out of that city. Simply make all the freeways ONE WAY OUT ONLY, and everyone could have got out.



Still bullshit Joshuwa, no offer was refused or has been, from anyone.



What do you expect him to do? As soon as it was seen to be a big mess, he left. Not like he can't handle ANYTHING at the "Western White House", it's a fact that any president can run the country from any of their retreats.



Again, Bullshit. Complete bullshit man. You may not like the guy, but read the facts.



I dare to say exactly that. It IS neither. You obviously have no bearing on the SCOPE of the affected area. I asked you before, what do you expect them to do? Airdrop paratroopers on top of the superdome? There are places even the military can't quickly get to. And the fact that the Governor didn't request help like she is supposed to delayed stuff even more.

What about the Parish's south of NO? Those are MOSTLY WHITE. Does Bush and the Government hate white folks now because a LOT of them died?



Show me that claim.

 

My thoughts exactly...

I also think Bush is an idiot.. but in no way racist.

 

Redz...wtf dude - do you not watch the news, read the news, or see what is happening in our country?

No claims I make above have neen the bullshit you say they are.

Bush refused SEVERAL offers of help, from SEVERAL sources - that's a damn fact.
I quoted at least two sources in the last thread pointing out quotes from W denying help.

If that wasn't enough, here's more:


Here is W's reasoning for such a thing:


Here are the links:
-Many nations offer material aid to hurricane victims; Bush refuses to accept
-Two dozen nations offer aid - (notice the sententence: "In a dramatic turnabout, the United States is now on the receiving end of help from around the world..."
-Federal response to Katrina a "national disgrace"
-Viewpoint: New Orleans crisis shames US

Saying that Bush never refused help obviously means you have not been watching what's been happening lately. That has been ALL OVER every news station, paper, and magazine over and over again. Even given quotes from Bush, you still call it bullshit. You're right dude - it is bullshit, it's bullshit that Bush refused help, and it's bullshit you deny he did so.


Some people did stay due to choice. But tell me...do you really think the majority of those who got out were the poor or the rich?

Do you think the rich people stayed, and the poor people got out?

The hurrican hit a few days before pay day. Even the slightly poor may not have been able to afford gas at that moment.

There were NOT necessary means of transportation for everyone out. Prisons had to let their prisoners loose, because they had no way of evacuating them, there just wasn't enough transportation. There were over 900 freed prisoners in the convention center who were let loose because of that. Now are you really telling me that if there is not enough transportation to get 900 prisoners out, that there is enough to get the whole city's poor and sick out?? Not a chance dude.



Not a problem - as it was heard live on NPR right from the horse's mouth:

Note, that this was said the day AFTER the footage of everyone in the stadium was all OVER CNN the entire day. Every person in America knew about it - yet the gov't claims they didn't. Right.

http://www.americanprogressaction.org/site...4257&ct=1381827

Just read a little before calling out bullshit, that's the least I ask...

It's all over the news, everywhere. The "help" offered was a disgrace that shamed this country and its government. The news is so saturated with stories about the lack of help and the government's uncaring and slow response that it's ridiculous I have to post them here. You can't turn on the TV without hearing about it, go to work without hearing about it...if all else fails...Google.

 

i never thought of it that way, all very good and valided points my brothers and sister..we ca move over 400,000 troops accross the oceans of the world but we can evacuate 2 states...something is wrong... but the weather is only going to get worse and now we must be ready for all.. granted we can try and some we will win and some we will lose but as long as we stay together as a country and a family we will win all... and that is what america is all about and no storm or war will ever take that away form us..... as for me our family over 5 generantion have served in the armed forces some day i hope my son or little girl will continue to serve... but as soon as they see us sweat and fight amunge us they win and i hope that is not happen now. be it terrioust, war, storms or what ever... we must set the standard for other to follow... being that we are the most powerfull country we will be getting the ass for any and all mistake we make... but the only way to perfection is "Pratice"

 

Well,

Some interesting reading there guys. Please allow me to put in my two cents while I'm sitting here in New Orleans.

First I'd like to comment on the "We can help everyone else but not ourselves" comments that everyone is using. Having been in the military, having been a part of a number of humanitarian missions to include the Tsunami disaster there is a very significant difference between this and those. The first is in relief that we conduct abroad, we are only providing supplies, we load up military cargo aircraft (planes) and they fly in, unload, and fly off and prepping those planes with supplies took nearly three days by itself. During the Tsunami incident we only had 15 helicopters from the US Navy and the US Air Force go in and provide any-type of recovery. In our current situation, with Katrina, our need is for rotary wing aircraft (helicopters) not 50 cargo planes over-flying New Orleans or the Gulf Region, land 200 miles away and find a way to get the supplies into the area, Instead of flying in supplies, just have it trucked in. In the largest relief effort to happen in the US, we have 28,000+ national guard soldiers here in the Gulf area alone, and an undetermined amount of other soldiers that are from local bases in the effected states. The number of other volunteers and private organizations that are involved is unimaginable.

I know I know, now comes the comment of "Why did it take so long? We can send troops to war in an eye blink, but not to our own cities to help." I am a Afghanistan and Iraq combat vet. At no time did anyone every blink and there were 175,000 troops standing on the Iraqi-Kuwaiti border. It took us nearly two months to move all of our equipment over there, prep it, and stand ready for the Go. Was the recovery effort into the New Orleans area itself a little slow, sure, it was a little slow, but it was NEVER excessively slow. Our organization offered our services and then realized that we shouldn't be needed. With four days of warning prior to Katrina making land fall, the amount of people of cars leaving the effected area, we THOUGHT that the majority of people would have gotten the hint and left for their safety, but we were wrong. We based our recovery efforts on an maybe needing to aid 50,000 people across the gulf region, we never expected that we were going to have to help 80,000 in New Orleans alone. So to re-organize and jump through hoops to find the manpower to try to meet the appropriate number for the number of victims was chaotic to say the less, and it takes time. When a number change like that happens, and you have to activate that many national guardsmen it takes time, you have to notify the commanding unit, that unit has to notify the deploying unit, that unit has to track down its men and recall them, those personnel have to ensure that they are medically cleared for deployment (about a 8+ hour process), then their gear has to be prepped, vehicles checked, fixed, then prepped with the supplies they are moving. Then more clarity on the mission, then the movement itself to their assigned areas. Imagine driving from Arkansas to New Orleans in a four dozen vehicle convoy at no more than 45-55 mph. That was a very abbreviated example of a soldiers mobility line and deployment schedule. That in itself will take 2 days then add a day or so to the drive.

"Doctors? Where are the Doctors?" We contrary to what seems to be everyone's belief, we do not have a jumbo jet of doctors sitting on a runway somewhere going through sleep cycles in the event of a national emergency. This country does not have a surplus of doctors, many hospitals are hurting for doctors themselves, so when it comes time to volunteer their services, hospitals put that under the microscope to see if they, themselves can handle their day to day emergencies and activities.

"Why were their still people on their roofs after six days?" Again believe or not, we do not implant locator chips into everyone when they are born. We conduct flights over the areas as well as ground search by boat or vehicles using a grid system carefully looking at homes, when people are staying inside their homes when we do our search patterns, and we are on loud speakers calling out, if we can't see you, we can't help you. So when people start showing up on the six and seventh day, rescue teams suck up the black eye because we know we've been through that area, but that person wasn't their before to the extent of our knowledge.

Please understand I am not venting, in typing this in an upset, or angry tone, I am trying to give others a different point of view to look at.

Why are we avoiding aid from other non-allied countries? Well I'm no politician, and don't enjoy politics personally, but I'm going to touch on this subject very briefly. We are accepting aid from other countries. Two days after Katrina hit, our British comrades were sailing afloat in their own ships in the gulf side by side with our US Navy. It was that US/British naval team that conducted the first set of helicopter rescues alongside the Coast Guard. A day later two other medical ships showed from other countries to provide aid successfully.

So why not accept aid from the other countries? If you were giving somebody an allowance that you didn't even know, and one day you cut it off because they were doing something dumb or stupid (harboring/aiding terrorist), and that person came back to give you some help with something would you accept it? Personally I wouldn't, because that allows that person to have a chip to try to use to get their funds back from the US. This is just my political view on that submit, my professional view comes down to Command and Control. It is possible to have to much help at one moment. Its like watching five of us guys trying to build a table in our garage, it becomes a mess, and instead of moving forward, your at a stand still. At this moment, we already are seeing this with what help we do have, so many moving parts, so many different organizations and then people/organizations just showing up out of the blue and start doing their own thing puts a strain on the current operation. Adding more may not necessarily fix our problem but hamper it more.

On the flip side, I have heard a lot of comments like "We help everyone but when we have something bad, they won't help us." I personally dislike this comment because to me it shows me how narrow minded some people are. You have to look at the big picture of things. When the Tsunami effort took place, someplace in the number of 12 countries were effected. Most of those countries were "third world" countries. you take all of those countries, combine them together and they may only take up maybe 1/3 of the landmass that the US has. We have states that are bigger than most of those countries. With that said, its not because they do not want to help, its because they can not help. They neither have the resources, nor the money to provide aid. Most that would want to help, have no way of getting it to us, they don't have navies, or Air Forces. And if they do, they don't have the resources to give us. Example, Thailand (a country that I have roots in), the King of Thailand wanted to provide aid, but the only thing he could provide us due to his own problems after the Tsunami and other stuff, is five tons of rice. Is this the type of aid we really need? Great initiative, but wrong resource personally. Rhode Island itself has more money than some of the countries that we've assisted. So please do no hate other nations because they haven't stepped up, they simply are not going to step up empty handed. It is because we are such a great nation that we CAN and WILL provide our services to the world when they are not in a position to help themselves. Many will have their opinion on that US policy, and some will even say, let those nations suffer and die, but as a soldier, I am proud to have helped others, its a motto for some in our service, "First There, That Others May Live" - US Air Force Special Ops, "De Oppresso Libre" translates to "To Free the Oppressed" - US Army Green Berets.

And again, yes some countries have offered aid, but it wasn't excepted. I know it shouldn't be an issue about politics, its an issue of human rights, the fact is, IT IS about politics.

And finally, and I'm not trying to open a can of worms here, and again, I'm not venting or angry by any means.

The comments from personalities such as Rev. Jesse Jackson, Kayne West, and others of that our relief efforts are slow because some that were effected were black southerners is just really outrageous. Like I said before, relief was slow because of the unbelievable numbers that surfaced in the following days. This relief had nothing to do with race, color, creed, scent, sex, or anything else like the sort. With the amount of racial comments I've heard on national television the past few days, I am honestly surprised that a comment like, "Bush had the hurricane created to take out just the southern black community". Racism and racial comments are my biggest nemesis. I fight racism everyday due to being a half white, half Asian descendent. Personally people need to get over themselves, realize that this is a modern day nation, and although racism might still have a small part in this nation, learn to grow up and accept people as people. I am here to rescue you, I don't care if you like an Umpa Lumpa or the Hunchback or Norte Dame, I don't care if you look like a playboy model or a supermodel, I don't care if you look black, white, Asian, martian, or some other race. You are a person, an individual, and more importantly at this moment, you are an American, and I will do everything I can for you, even the jerks that shoot at us here, in the end, I will be here to help them.

Okay, let me wrap this novel up.. One thing that I CAN NOT stand to hear right now is the word refugee. A boats mate and myself actually got into a fist fight over this when we first started this operation. I made it very clear to my boat crew that I am ready to go fist for fist if I ever heard one of them call another person a refugee. Personally I find it degrading. Especially when you rescue someone and you make that radio call, "Command, Boat ## recovered one refugee". If your that person how would you feel about that? Doesn't that just kind of put a knot in your stomach? Make you feel insignificant like you haven't done anything for yourself the past week? I refuse to let my boat crew call any of these people refugees. The people that endured this storm are survivors and my team will treat them as such. These people endured a ravaging storm, fought mother natures elements, fought conflicts with themselves and their decisions, and made it. These are survivors, they have been through more than anyone on Fear Factor, or Survivor, or any other show out there. These are the real deal, and I applaud everyone one of them that we rescue. Its the first thing we do when we recover someone, after we get them situated on the boat, wrapped in a blanket, give them some food and drinks, my crew claps and congratulates that person for their personal strengths and endeavors that they just went through. And when we help them off the boat, we congratulate them again, and each of us gives that person a hug and blessings. So respectfully, if you wouldn't mind, if this subject continues, please do not refer to any these people here as refugees. For two days they were victims to a great storm, then they fought for their lives, and are now survivors of that event.

We didn't drop the ball on this effort. No one did. Dropping the ball would mean utter failure. We just were not prepared for the number of people that decided to ride out the storm. This storm effected nearly 2.7 million people, we expected to have to aid approximately 1/4 of that in the entire effected area. We were not ready aid 1/4 of that number alone in the new orleans and surrounding area. Hope this message has not frustrated people to the extent of wanting to thump me, I just wanted to give another point of view.

Respectfully,
Richard P. Brake

 

Actually, I watch the news for about 2 or 3 hours a day. Every day. Always have.

What is happening in our country is that anyone that can complain about anything, and can somehow try to pin it on the President, is trying to do so.

I guarantee if the sun went out tomorrow, someone would blame it on President Bush.

FOLKS ARE BLAMING THE HURRICANE on him. A NATRUAL DISASTER. Saying that since he has stocks in oil companies, he's responsible for global warming and therefore the hurricanes that come up in the warmer weather.



Ehhh, actually, they are my friend. You are reading titles and surface stories. READ deeper, and actually look at a map of the affected areas.



No, it's not a fact. It's a translation of what happened. I've read all of the links you put up my man and they ALL refer to Bush's press confrence where he made his speech.



I heard this speech when it was given, and fully agree with it. There is NO refusal in this paragraph at all. None. Translate and spin what you want how you want, but it's just cold hard fact mang.

The second link you put up even reinforces the FACT OF THE MATTER.



Tada.



LOL Yeah right, first dead body the Frenchies see they'd surrender to a seagull. You'd expect us to accept some sort of help from a country that says that 9/11 didn't happen?

Anyways, this is also wrong.

http://www.bulletindescommunes.fr/en/artic...e.php?id=413173
^^^
Read - French thanked for help by US Ambassador.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168295,00.html
I also saw this the other day, also telling that we haven't refused any help.

Anyways. Explaining stuff to someone that doesn't want to listen, or allready has their minds made up, is worthless. I'm not a republican, nor a democrat. I'm not an independant either. I vote for who's best for any job. I also will look at a issue from every angle and not just hop on the first thing I hear, or what "Feels right". You are asking ME to read and look at what you are saying, and I have. But reading a headline doesn't tell you a story.

I also think it's kinda Ironic that folks are all blaming the Bush Administration for this fiasco, when it's been reported for the past 30 years that THIS EXACT DISASTER WAS GOING TO HAPPEN. Why didn't Clinton fix it? Why didn't Bush Sr? Why didn't Reagan? Why didn't anyone else?

That's been all over the news also, but you don't mention that do you?




I did, and you misread the entire thing again.



And that's from YOUR link. That's the CONVENTION CENTER. Not the Superdome, not a stadium. You are hearing what you want to hear my man. That's a fact, until Fox News got guys on the air during the O'Rilley Factor and started telling the US Millitary where they were needed, these folks were just piling up. That is the fault of the Louisiana Governor, and the ineptitude of the Mayor of New Orleans.

So, again my friend, slow down. Read some UNBIASED WEBSITES. Or maybe even just read the stories you post, in full, and let it sink in for a bit.

I still didn't get my questions answered though.

What did you want to happen? You want 500 Helicopters sitting just out of harms reach waiting to plunge in when the storm passes? Okay, no problem, give us a few days warning next time and let us know exactly where to put the choppers, you know of course, Hurricane prediction is an EXACT science... Right?

You want airborne troopers from the 82nd to parachute into the murky water looking for survivors and to escort guys taking home 12 Flat Screen TV's to the nearest evac center? No problem, let's just hope not that many of them drown in the cesspool.

As for what you said about no transportation...

http://junkyardblog.net/archives/week_2005_08_28.html


^^^
LESS THAN A MILE FROM THE DOME sat dozens of municipally-owned NORTA buses.





And these are just what I could find in the first 2 links in a google search.

But nothin but love for ya bro.

wink1.gif

 

For some reason, the quotes werent working, so I divided comments with lines dunno.gif


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Redz, no one is BLAMING the hurricane happening on Bush. They are blaming the tremendous and digracefull lack of help on him, and the REST of the gov't involved, for the lack of help that occured AFTER the hurricane. That of which is entirely 100% accurate and acceptable. It is a disgrace.
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Actually, no, they don't all refer to the press conference. They also refer to interviews, such as the one on ABC that I quoted last time. And you are accusing me of selectively reading only what I want to hear?

It's a known fact Bush refused offers. It's been all over every news station enough - if you don't want to believe it by now, you never will, so it's no use debating. You too, seem to have your mind made up in such a way no facts will change it.
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Now you are justifying Bush refusing help... But I thought you said no help was refused....?

Perhaps your starting to read the articles after all.
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Read the article noted for the statment: "Dramatic turn-around"

That 'dramatic turn-around' was Bush first refusing help - THEN later after being criticised decided to accept it.
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I whole-heartidly agree. I'm not looking at this from a political angle..I'm looking at it as an outside observer, noticing the man in charge of getting things done has failed to do so. Be him democrat or republican, he failed misserably. Bush being a republican is irrelevant.

I'm asking you to read articles, watch the news, and reply with informed claims. So far, you've only quoted what I've said and put "Bullshit" underneath it. You have not backed up your claims with any sources (you put a couple links in the last reply, but they only state what happened AFTER the criticism). You call things false as if you just saying that makes it so. For every claim I've made, I've backed it up with a source.
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Tell me...what would Clinton or any one else have done? Built a wind machine that would blow at a hurricane and turn it off course? No one could have prevented the hurricane.

I do however assure you that just about any other preisdent, including Clinton, would have handled this in a much better way. They at least wouldn't have shamed our nation.
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I've reading everything I posted, several times...even post these articles long ago for you. I don't think it's me who is not reading them.

I don't get with all the cristism from CNN, BBC, Fox, NewYork Times, etc etc etc calling this a disgrace - why do you still not believe it is?

I know you served in the military, which I and everyone else are appreciative of, and I can see that you support the president and government on all issues. While I do feel supporting our government is key to America being what it is, there comes a time when you have to realize the government is not always doing what is best; and we have to consider WHY America is what it is.

It is because the people are the governing body that decide who and how our nation should be lead. If a leader is in power and not doing their job, it is the American public's responsibility to put an end to that. Albeit should have beein avoided in the first place by not electing someone incapable, but America is unique in that the citizens have a choice. If don't excercise that choice, of what use is it?
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I know how you feel...lol
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They knew days in advance a giant storm was coming. Like you said before - an evacuation was orded. But like I an others have told you - not everyone has the means to do so, and even those that do find it terribly difficult to make it out.

Even after the storm hit, people were left on the roofs for nearly an entire week without any help, or any knowledge of help coming. The NEWS hellicopters were getting people out before any government help even showed up.

There could have been a lot of things differently, and there are enough gov't choppers and such that could've gotten people out.

The only thing that saved people was folks running those news choppers and the rest of the American public who gave up what they had to help people, since no one else was attemping to do so.
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Again...do you really think those people are going to take those TV's home? To what home are they taking them to? Do you think a rescue bus/chopper/etc is going to let them on with it? No.

Regardless of their standing, people need to be saved theives or not.

And if actors like Sean Penn can wade in the water and pull survivors out, your're damn right I expect the U.S. gov't to wade in the murky cesspool and do the same.
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Ditto my man fing02.gif

My frustration is with what happened, not with anyone's opinion on it. I don't expect to change anyones mind, but hopefully a lot of lessons can be learned from this disaster that will provide a change when the next one happens.