OK Tasos, I'm calling you and your 190HP out...
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UGH! Dammit people, look...
I do not question the fact that there ARE high horsepower N/A motors out there. Obviously there are, HVE and RPW and the Aussies (I didn't know that the F2 was yet another model, but I digress) are making power with N/A.
But dammit, look at what they are using:
LOOK AT THAT LIST
Titanium rods? 14:1 compression on hyper-U pistons?? Quad throttle bodies anyone? "Extremely modified cylinder head"?
Did anybody ELSE see that on Tasos' upgrades list? I didn't.
And Hespala: Yes, I've been wrong in the past, and I jumped prematurely to the conclusion that the 1.6L BETA and 1.6L ALPHA were the same motor. So be it.
The fact of the matter still remains, and I still hold to what I wrote: Intricate pistons? Yes. You cannot slap a "dome" on a very high compression piston to make it work, you have to build the piston crown to conform to the shape of the combustion chamber.
Valve reliefs can be moved if the head is shaved too much? Sure they can. It just takes a LOT of work. I didn't notice him talking about completely reshaping the head -- maybe this is some of the "mystery work" his mechanic did to the car but didn't tell him about?
HLA's explode? Maybe not explode, but they do rupture. Wanna know the fastest way to rupture an HLA? Run it at 9000 RPM's.
Crankshaft lightening? Perhaps RPW does indeed shave all the counterbalance weights off the crank, what does that do for a daily driver? Does it idle at 800 RPM's? Doubtful. Would you want to put massive amounts of power through a crank that's been shaved down like that? I doubt it as well. 200HP probably isn't an issue...
And rotating balance? Hyundai does balance the rotating assembly, as evidenced by the work I've already had done on my builder motor. They only needed to take a few grams out of the counterweights for it all to add up right -- although that is *including* the weights of the new parts. Since he's using stock parts, who knows?
Just so you know, it doesn't put out much
The car *has* been on the dyno, I'll get a copy if you'd like, although it's hardly anything to look at. 134HP at the tires, uncorrected at 5700 feet ASL. I had the dyno done about a month ago with the Elantra cam and my S-AFC right before I sold it. The motor had 97,200 miles on it during the runs.
I still find it very amusing that you people are comparing motors with all these HUGE modifications as proof that 190WHP is possible from a FULLY STOCK 2.0L motor. Oh yeah, with 1.6L stock cams and a reprogrammed stock ECU.
Yeah sure, those stock rods that Hyundai used in their F2 rally project were certainly the same rods as WE get in the generic production models. So were the cams, and so were the springs, and so were the 13:1 pistons. rolleyes.gif
-Red-
I do not question the fact that there ARE high horsepower N/A motors out there. Obviously there are, HVE and RPW and the Aussies (I didn't know that the F2 was yet another model, but I digress) are making power with N/A.
But dammit, look at what they are using:
QUOTE
Other modifications will be including Titanium Forged conrods, Hypereutectic Pistons (Die hard Forged fanatics please not this exclusion), C.R 14.0 : 1, the HVe Qaud Throttle Body System - 45mm bores with sliding throttles not butterflies, HVe extractors, extremely modified cylinder head and a modified version of some
That's where the RPW site stops, I don't know why it says "modified version of some...".LOOK AT THAT LIST
Titanium rods? 14:1 compression on hyper-U pistons?? Quad throttle bodies anyone? "Extremely modified cylinder head"?
Did anybody ELSE see that on Tasos' upgrades list? I didn't.
And Hespala: Yes, I've been wrong in the past, and I jumped prematurely to the conclusion that the 1.6L BETA and 1.6L ALPHA were the same motor. So be it.
The fact of the matter still remains, and I still hold to what I wrote: Intricate pistons? Yes. You cannot slap a "dome" on a very high compression piston to make it work, you have to build the piston crown to conform to the shape of the combustion chamber.
Valve reliefs can be moved if the head is shaved too much? Sure they can. It just takes a LOT of work. I didn't notice him talking about completely reshaping the head -- maybe this is some of the "mystery work" his mechanic did to the car but didn't tell him about?
HLA's explode? Maybe not explode, but they do rupture. Wanna know the fastest way to rupture an HLA? Run it at 9000 RPM's.
Crankshaft lightening? Perhaps RPW does indeed shave all the counterbalance weights off the crank, what does that do for a daily driver? Does it idle at 800 RPM's? Doubtful. Would you want to put massive amounts of power through a crank that's been shaved down like that? I doubt it as well. 200HP probably isn't an issue...
And rotating balance? Hyundai does balance the rotating assembly, as evidenced by the work I've already had done on my builder motor. They only needed to take a few grams out of the counterweights for it all to add up right -- although that is *including* the weights of the new parts. Since he's using stock parts, who knows?
QUOTE
Ultimately Red has self admittedly done SFA in serious NA mods to his car which has never seen a dyno so we dont even know how much his car puts out.
Just so you know, it doesn't put out much
The car *has* been on the dyno, I'll get a copy if you'd like, although it's hardly anything to look at. 134HP at the tires, uncorrected at 5700 feet ASL. I had the dyno done about a month ago with the Elantra cam and my S-AFC right before I sold it. The motor had 97,200 miles on it during the runs.I still find it very amusing that you people are comparing motors with all these HUGE modifications as proof that 190WHP is possible from a FULLY STOCK 2.0L motor. Oh yeah, with 1.6L stock cams and a reprogrammed stock ECU.
Yeah sure, those stock rods that Hyundai used in their F2 rally project were certainly the same rods as WE get in the generic production models. So were the cams, and so were the springs, and so were the 13:1 pistons. rolleyes.gif
-Red-
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IF THE INFO POSTED STILL MAKES YOU DOUBT THAT 190HP IS VERY POSSIBLE, I DO NOT KNOW WHAT WILL CONVINCE YOU GUYS!!!!
The FIA Group A 1600 to 2000cc entry is going to be a new 03 Tiburon with a 2liter n/a engine. We been investigating on who can do this and we are inclined towards RPW in Australia. We are talking to David Thomas about it and will probably start soon. The car will not race officially until Feb 2003, we are going to test half year first. This car has many nice features that makes it a nice choice for Group A. Weight has gone up a bit but its dimensions are nicer, it will have the 6speed *according to Hyundai press release*(tranny can be changed internally but the case has to remain the same so no sequential gear box etc.) There will be a 1.6 and auto model so you can use these final gear ratios, 15 inch ventilated disks in front and 14 inch back (brake rotors cannot be substituted), capable of handling 16 and 17 inch wheels which allows you to use great tires for both tarmac and gravel.
We will see how it goes. For the mean time we will race 4 Group N this year, 2 Accents in the 1300 to 1600cc and 2 03 Tiburons in the 1600 to 2000cc.
Anyway Tasos keep it up and if you need additional help do not hesitate to contact RPW and David Thomas.
About the twin turbo 03. I am familiar with the engine, the space I checked on the Sonata and Santa Fe and it seems there will be no problem. Probably you will need new exhaust manifolds to locate the turbos position. Besides that I think it will work. I already have the turbos, the intercooler. The injectors, pump,regulator, fuel management, pistons, rods etc. I already bought but have not arrived yet. I have no rush, the car is still pending production. For now I will keep driving my 01 Turbo Shark everyday which is a lot of fun. Need you to wish me luck!
FINALLY IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW THAT ALISTER MC RAE MADE 4TH FOR HYUNDAI WRC IN THE ENGLISH RALLY TO CLOSE THE SEASON!!!!!!
The FIA Group A 1600 to 2000cc entry is going to be a new 03 Tiburon with a 2liter n/a engine. We been investigating on who can do this and we are inclined towards RPW in Australia. We are talking to David Thomas about it and will probably start soon. The car will not race officially until Feb 2003, we are going to test half year first. This car has many nice features that makes it a nice choice for Group A. Weight has gone up a bit but its dimensions are nicer, it will have the 6speed *according to Hyundai press release*(tranny can be changed internally but the case has to remain the same so no sequential gear box etc.) There will be a 1.6 and auto model so you can use these final gear ratios, 15 inch ventilated disks in front and 14 inch back (brake rotors cannot be substituted), capable of handling 16 and 17 inch wheels which allows you to use great tires for both tarmac and gravel.
We will see how it goes. For the mean time we will race 4 Group N this year, 2 Accents in the 1300 to 1600cc and 2 03 Tiburons in the 1600 to 2000cc.
Anyway Tasos keep it up and if you need additional help do not hesitate to contact RPW and David Thomas.
About the twin turbo 03. I am familiar with the engine, the space I checked on the Sonata and Santa Fe and it seems there will be no problem. Probably you will need new exhaust manifolds to locate the turbos position. Besides that I think it will work. I already have the turbos, the intercooler. The injectors, pump,regulator, fuel management, pistons, rods etc. I already bought but have not arrived yet. I have no rush, the car is still pending production. For now I will keep driving my 01 Turbo Shark everyday which is a lot of fun. Need you to wish me luck!
FINALLY IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW THAT ALISTER MC RAE MADE 4TH FOR HYUNDAI WRC IN THE ENGLISH RALLY TO CLOSE THE SEASON!!!!!!
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MARIO GET A GRIP!
LISTEN TO WHAT I'M SAYING FOR A MOMENT
I know there are fully N/A cars out there making serious power, DUH. What you are missing is this: THEY ARE NOT USING STOCK PARTS, GET IT?
They are using full custom pistons, custom rods, custom cams, radical head work, much stronger valve springs, FULL STANDALONE ENGINE MANAGEMENT, you name it. These guys are making huge power N/A, but they ARE NOT DOING IT ON STOCK PARTS.
The argument here is NOT that Hyundai cannot make high horsepower N/A, the argument is that you CANNOT do it with STOCK parts. 100% stock parts!
TELL ME THIS RIGHT HERE:
How many of those high-horsepower N/A cars are using cams with 232 degrees of intake duration and 240 degrees of exhaust duration? HELLO??? Can you guess ZERO?
How many of those cars are running 13:1 or HIGHER static compression? Howabout ALL of them?
How many of those cars are running FACTORY RODS for that 200+ N/A horsepower? Can you guess ZERO again?
Would you please READ what I've been posting and quit making crap up! Again, there are many cars that are running high N/A numbers, but absolutely ZERO of them are running 100% ABSOLUTE STOCK PARTS.
READ MY INITIAL POST, THE VERY FIRST THING I WROTE IN THIS WHOLE THREAD:
Go back and read it for yourself. Unless he's forgetting to mention his titanium rods, fully REMOVED balancing from the crank, a way radical amount of head work, REGROUND cams or something else... Then he's quoting all this insane horsepower on what is essentiall a STOCK motor.
READ and COMPREHEND!
-Red-
LISTEN TO WHAT I'M SAYING FOR A MOMENT
I know there are fully N/A cars out there making serious power, DUH. What you are missing is this: THEY ARE NOT USING STOCK PARTS, GET IT?
They are using full custom pistons, custom rods, custom cams, radical head work, much stronger valve springs, FULL STANDALONE ENGINE MANAGEMENT, you name it. These guys are making huge power N/A, but they ARE NOT DOING IT ON STOCK PARTS.
The argument here is NOT that Hyundai cannot make high horsepower N/A, the argument is that you CANNOT do it with STOCK parts. 100% stock parts!
TELL ME THIS RIGHT HERE:
How many of those high-horsepower N/A cars are using cams with 232 degrees of intake duration and 240 degrees of exhaust duration? HELLO??? Can you guess ZERO?
How many of those cars are running 13:1 or HIGHER static compression? Howabout ALL of them?
How many of those cars are running FACTORY RODS for that 200+ N/A horsepower? Can you guess ZERO again?
Would you please READ what I've been posting and quit making crap up! Again, there are many cars that are running high N/A numbers, but absolutely ZERO of them are running 100% ABSOLUTE STOCK PARTS.
READ MY INITIAL POST, THE VERY FIRST THING I WROTE IN THIS WHOLE THREAD:
QUOTE
Here's the deal: There is 100% absolutely positively NO WAY you make 190 wheel horsepower with the parts you list on your motor. Period. Unless you're completely forgetting another handful of modiciations on your car, that story has more holes than a donut factory, let me explain...
Go back and read it for yourself. Unless he's forgetting to mention his titanium rods, fully REMOVED balancing from the crank, a way radical amount of head work, REGROUND cams or something else... Then he's quoting all this insane horsepower on what is essentiall a STOCK motor.
READ and COMPREHEND!
-Red-
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YEP, I READ AND I UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT!!! YOU ARE RIGHT THESE CARS ARE HIGHLY MODIFIED TO REACH THE POWER. YES, THE LIST DOES NOT MAKE A GOOD CASE!!! I JUST THOUGHT FOR A SEC THAT YOU (OR SOMEBODY ELSE) DID NOT BELIEVE HYUNDAI N/A ENGINES COULD GENERATE THE POWER. MY POINT FROM THE BEGINNING WAS THAT IT IS POSSIBLE. I EVEN SAID 190 IS VERY ACHIEVABLE. THE LIST MMMMM!!! YOU ARE RIGHT THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING MORE THAN THE LIST TO BE A TRUE POWER STATEMENT. I WAS NOT TRYING TO GIVE ANY CRAP I WAS JUST TRYING TO SAY IT IS POSSIBLE!!! WITH THE LIST ONLY, YOU ARE RIGHT DOBTFUL!! ANYWAY RED I AM ALSO TRYING TO ENCOURAGE TASOS AND TURBOMAN TO FIND OUT EVERYTHING THAT HAS BEEN DONE FOR US TO LEARN!!! I THINK IS ALSO IMPORTANT TO KEEP EVERYBODY IN AND THE DISCUSSIONS CAN HELP TO QUESTION THINGS FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE MEMBER. YOU QUESTIONED TASOS NUMBER AND I UNDERSTAND AND TASOS SHOULD CHECK WITH HIS MECHANIC, THAT IS HIS BENEFIT FROM YOUR QUESTIONING. I THINK MAYBE THE TONE WAS A BIT OFF AND WAS NOT LEADING FOR ANY POSITIVE OUTCOME. AS I SAID IN THE OTHER THREAD LET THEM POST THEIR CASE OR QUESTION THEIR MECHANIC IF THINGS DONT SOUND OK TO THEM. geee!!! I AM DONE HERE!!! GOOD LUCK TO EVERYBODY AND HOPE I CAN GET HOLD OF THE WHOLE PICTURE AND LEARN FROM IT AS I AM SURE TASOS AND TURBOMAN ARE ALREADY LEARNING AND MIGHT WANT TO QUESTION THEMSELVES ABOUT IT.
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Hey RED 1 thing for ya,
My 2001 Elantra is able to do 64MPH @ 6400 RPM with 205/40R17's which is about a 60MPH radar speed.
I can get a little over 90 in third @ 6400 RPM.
NOw these are estimates As I think the stock tach is a little off considering my shift light is set for 6200 RPM when my tach says 5800RPM.
I Proved to a buddy of mine which didnt believe I could get to 90mph in 3rd.
My 2001 Elantra is able to do 64MPH @ 6400 RPM with 205/40R17's which is about a 60MPH radar speed.
I can get a little over 90 in third @ 6400 RPM.
NOw these are estimates As I think the stock tach is a little off considering my shift light is set for 6200 RPM when my tach says 5800RPM.
I Proved to a buddy of mine which didnt believe I could get to 90mph in 3rd.
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That doesn't suprise me, the Elantra has a 3.625 final and equivalent gearing. The specs on the BETA trannies I was able to come up with point to a 4.025 final and even shorter gearing, which equates out to a VERY short top speed in 2nd.
-Red-
-Red-
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I don't know if I have any credibility here since I'm new... but some of you may know me from other forums. I have extensive contact with Hyundai tuners in Korea, Australia and the US. I am very active in drag racing in Korea. I was a former Mechanical Engineer and spent a stint with GM. And I drive a fast car and a Very fast car.
I would have to agree with RED that in THIS case 190 Wheel hp is not believable. That's 223 engine hp. Maybe 190 flywheel hp. What dynos are used in Greece? It doesn't look like the standard Bosch, Dyno Dynamics or Dynojet.
Is this 265 hp F2 engine built yet? Remember this is 225 WHEEL hp. I don't think so. We have had more than one Australian and American tuner promise big power numbers and then be unable to deliver.
Look at the quoted power and torque numbers... yes the torque is acceptable around 151 ft lbs at the wheels... we have several cars that make more than that here in Korea. But if you calculate it out, the F2 car makes this torque all the way out at 7500 rpms. This MIGHT be possible in this over squared engine but I DOUBT it. IF this engine does make this kind of power, I doubt it will make if for long at 7500+ rpms.
I get to see ALOT of stuff done to Hyundais including stuff used by Hyundai racing teams.
My guess is that the F2 engine will probably come up a little short... somewhere around 245-250 engine hp. I have seen cars with race engine built in Australia running Motec M4's and I have seen full built NA engines made by some tuners in Korea. I have a very good idea what these cars are capable of.
The thing that everyone new to tuning should keep in mind is. ALWAYS be skeptical. People lie. Tuners lie. Automotive companies lie.
I would have to agree with RED that in THIS case 190 Wheel hp is not believable. That's 223 engine hp. Maybe 190 flywheel hp. What dynos are used in Greece? It doesn't look like the standard Bosch, Dyno Dynamics or Dynojet.
Is this 265 hp F2 engine built yet? Remember this is 225 WHEEL hp. I don't think so. We have had more than one Australian and American tuner promise big power numbers and then be unable to deliver.
Look at the quoted power and torque numbers... yes the torque is acceptable around 151 ft lbs at the wheels... we have several cars that make more than that here in Korea. But if you calculate it out, the F2 car makes this torque all the way out at 7500 rpms. This MIGHT be possible in this over squared engine but I DOUBT it. IF this engine does make this kind of power, I doubt it will make if for long at 7500+ rpms.
I get to see ALOT of stuff done to Hyundais including stuff used by Hyundai racing teams.
My guess is that the F2 engine will probably come up a little short... somewhere around 245-250 engine hp. I have seen cars with race engine built in Australia running Motec M4's and I have seen full built NA engines made by some tuners in Korea. I have a very good idea what these cars are capable of.
The thing that everyone new to tuning should keep in mind is. ALWAYS be skeptical. People lie. Tuners lie. Automotive companies lie.
