OK Tasos, I'm calling you and your 190HP out...
 

Here's the deal: There is 100% absolutely positively NO WAY you make 190 wheel horsepower with the parts you list on your motor. Period. Unless you're completely forgetting another handful of modiciations on your car, that story has more holes than a donut factory, let me explain:

Alright, you have a BBTB and BBIM. Works good, no questions there.
Yeah, ok, so do I. It gained a grand total of about 3WHP when tuned correctly on my N/A car. Even if you completely race-hogged it, the headwork is worthless unless you have some very radical cams.
Ok this was the very first concerning part of your story: You have this work done by a mechanic, he *tells* you he did something, but he won't tell you exactly what? And even if he shaved 20 thousandths off your head, your compression would bump up by about 0.2 static. So you went from 10.3;1 to 10.5:1 -- not enough for the power you're quoting.
Yeah, uh-huh. rolleyes.gif The SECOND concerning part, he *machined* your STOCK pistons? WTF? Do you know what kind of severe stress fractures you can induce on silicon-impregnated aluminum alloy by machining it??? You also know that machining a piston effectively REDUCES your compression ratio, right? Something's really starting to smell bad here...
Oh man, now it's getting deep. This seems to be the "key" to your whole setup. The problem? Hyundai doesn't make "aggressive" cams for their STOCK cars. The lift change? A few 10ths of a millimeter, and maybe another 2-3 degrees more duration. So you've got a cam with the same lift of a 1.8L, and with a 248 duration. Do you know the folks in Korea who do this stuff for a living are using cams with better than 270 degrees of duration? Your 248 1.6L stock cam is NOTHING compared to a REAL N/A cam.

Not only that, but it's 100% unadjustable. The 20 (or more?) thousandths your machinist took off the head makes the center-to-center distance between the camshafts and the crankshaft shorter, which means your timing belt loaded side is shorter. WTF does all that mean? It means BOTH your intake and exhasut cams have retarded the timing between 2 and 4 degrees. Not IGNITION timing, this is CAM timing we're talking about. This REALLY screws up the performance of your car. Unless you forgot to mention those cool adjustable cam gears?
Nothing fancy here, standard engine rebuild stuff.

Quote:

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10)Gearbox of the 1.6L Tib...
11)Heavy Lightened and balaced the flywheel (of the 1.6L)...

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Ahh, here is the kicker... You're using the tranny from the 1.6L, along with a "heavily lightened" flywheel from the 1.6L as well. You do realize the 1.6L transmissions use almost a 4.40 final right? Your gearing in that gearbox is so short, even a 100% STOCK 2.0L motor would spin the tires through 1st and 2nd, and probably 3rd as well. The gears in that car are so short that you probably can just BARELY hit 50mph in 2nd gear unless you've upped the revlimit to the sky. 1st gear probably stops at about 20 or so...

Quote:

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12)Lightened and balanced Crank...(not very much)

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Ugh, this is scary. The crank is 100% balanced from the factory, NO EXCEPTIONS. And you lightened it? Well, I guess it's your decision, but lightened cranks really only give you one more thing: weak cranks. I hope you never plan on running a turbo through that thing, or you'll probably become the very first person I know to break a BETA crank.
I know you can reprogram the stock ECU, you just have to find someone with an i8042 PROM reader and burner. Bigger injectors? If you reprogrammed the ECU, then I can believe it.
Yeah, standard stuff.
Ok, now here's a lot more concerning information. How exactly did you get that 0-100kms time? Did you strap a vericom unit to the side of your car? Or did you just stopwatch it? Either way, a totally stock 2.0L motor with a 4.40 final drive tranny is probably capable of making similar numbers, so long as you don't mind shifting into 3rd to get there.
Yes, because you have such an incredibly short transmission in the car. Again, a wholly stock 2.0L motor with a 4.40 final is going to A: spin everywhere, B: torque steer like a mother (the left-right movement on shift) and C: spin some more if you have a strong clutch and speed-shift it.
Wanna know why? Because your mechanic machined your stock piston crowns. This probably completely screwed up your quench area between the piston crowns and the cylinder head, which means you are having VERY large problems with flame front propogation and fuel atomization at or near TDC right before the spark is applied.

And finally:
Ok, here's the deal. Dynos HAVE to be done in the gear ratio closest to 1:1. That typically means FOURTH gear. I can show, almost any multiple of times that a dyno in 3rd or even 2nd gear shows more and more power to the tires.
Secondly, where are the pictures of these dyons? Are they corrected or REAL numbers? Are they figuring crank HP for you, or are they really showing wheel power? Do they show torque as well? Howabout air/fuel ratio?

I have absolutely no way to believe you until I can see a dyno sheet, both with wheel horsepower, wheel torque, air fuel ratio and finally some sort of halfway decent proof they aren't "corrected" in any way.

Wanna know why?

There are Tiburons in Korea that run 2.2L bore/stroker kits. Equipped with 12:1 compression pistons. Modified cylinder heads so the ports are absolutely huge. valves that are WAY oversized. Cams that have more duration and lift then any stock Hyundai cam could ever dream of. A 4-1 header that has NO exhaust -- the header just dumps to atmosphere right there under the oilpan. Flywheels made of billet aluminum that weigh 7 pounds. Fully standalone Haltech or Motec engine management. They RIP OFF the intake manifold and run a 40mm throttle body for EACH cylinder. Completely removed accessories, and for the alternator that has to stay, billet aluminum underdrive pulley to run it.

These cars are almost IMPOSSIBLE to get into the 190WHP range. So unless you missed ALL the parts I just finished listing above, I very seriously doubt your claim. You have less displacement, less compression, less cam, a LOT less computer, a LOT more rotating wieght and a LOT less sophisticated intake system than the folks in Korea.

My very long $0.02,
-Red-

all i can say is wow.

Wow, thats some reply their RED tongue.gif tongue.gif
I couldn't agree with you more with the above answers.
I have all the bolt on mods possible except internally and not EVEN close to 190WHP.
I have Headers,BTB(58mm),Port matched IM,MSD Ignition,Crank Pulley,Custom CAI,2.25 inch custom exhaust with High flow Cat,Port and polished Cylinder head as well as valve job(radius cut),S-AFC.
When i had my Auto i had around 126-128WHP with the above mods.now that its a 5 speed i might of gained a few more HP,BUT 190WHP TOPS THE CAKE :D :D :D :D
When i install my Turbo and my 440cc injectors running at about 8-10psi even then i still might not hit 170WHP with proper tuning on my S-AFC!!!!!!!!!

Holy cow. I havent seen some of those terms since working on a 69 Camaro. Quench? jesus. havent seen that since we built a chevy C20 pickup to tow amusment park rides up the poconos. Wow.

Nice job RED.

DIZ-AM!!!!

Well RED...
Lets begin...
a)All of you guys use a strap-on device that will full your stock ECU and make it give more fuel...What about the timing?? What about "avance"? Here in my country we get 215WheelHP from 1.6L Beta motors turbocharged...Every single store does it and it is an easy stuff...Unless you don't now how to do a proper turbo setup and use the damn alpine kit with the rusty pipes and so...Check Turboman's dynos and setup and you will se what I mean...
(We have Fiat PUNTOS GT turbo that produce 280WheelHP and can kick the **** out of any car...and they are just 1400cc, so I can't understand that you make so little hps out of your 2.0L motors)

b)Do you guys know the Pegeot 106 Rallye? Very popular in my country and with proper tuning and modifications similar to mine it easyly reaches the 180WheelHP from a 1600cc engine! So my project does have extra power to give me...

c)About the cams...Ohh RED you know it all don't you? If you are unable to find the correct info about the 1600cc BETAS we have in greece...then you shouldn't talk the first place about the cams. The 1,6L moter is a BETA and you should have found that easily...No its not the moter used in the Accent GT which is 1500cc and produces 105hp...The cams do a great job, and instead of doubting me, you should try and shed some real light about them...

d)The crank and flywheel have been machined and lightened so my motor will spin happily to about 9000rpms which is my final goal.

e)Yes we have problems with the tunning of the car, and because of the high compression ratio which is over 11,RED, there is some pinging. We are also facing problems with the stock ECU and maybe I have to upgrade to a Haltech.

f)The pistons were machined so that they won't collide with the valves. Much of work has been done with the cyllider-head, and it has been flow-bench tested and yes I did pay alot of money...

The result of my project is that I can easily beat many turbo-cars out there...

I haven't finished with my project yet, and I am facing many problems. I hoped that you guys were willing to help me with that, and not try to make my sound stupid. Really RED I can't understand what is your problem? I promised dyno-sheets and more info as soon as my project is done. We HAVE measured my car at 190WheelHP either you like it or not. The management was done by a laptop and we are trying to make the stock ECU to work fine with that program...AS for the gearbox I use...It reaches 100km with the second speed,with the revlimiter at 7000rpms.

The problem with you guys is that you don't have any experience with the 1.6L BETA and you won't even admit it exists!!!

Anyway,I would appreciate any help for my project, but you RED who seem to be a person that has some experience, won't help me, but instead you make fun of me. Thanx man for all your support.

For all you guys, when me project is finished I will give you all the details I can get...

PS:And don't forget the F2 Tiburon made with a 2.0L Beta, 275WheelHP N/A...

Read the above post that i wrote with my mods to my Tibby.I have more mods and not even close to your SO CLAIM 190Whp.

I see no point for all this s**t! I personally do not know if Tasos car is 190whp or not but I can tell you this, Tasos is right about Beta engines capable of higher power than this. Hyundai Rallye kit car develops 260 hp with a 2 liter engine and still has restrictions. We are building a Group A 2.0 n/a beta rally engine in Australia with 250hp with a lot of restrictions. This engine is for our new rally car entry. Just south from the US, in Jamaica, there is a 270 to 300hp n/a 2.0 Tiburon rallye car. This car is not regulated by FIA rules. 100HP per liter is no big deal, hondas VTEC can deliver this for street and what is the mistery of 150HP per liter? Is done everyday. I have to support Tasos in his argument that he can reach 190 and more even if he is having problems now. In most everywhere in the world small displacement engines are very popular and a lot of power is generated by these engines that rev way high with high compression ratios. Lets see other engines, we raced a GTS Nissan 300zx turbo around Latin America some 4 years ago. This car we purchased from Nissan Motorsports in the US. This car was IMSA Champ driven by Steve Millen, Johnny O´Connel, John Morton and built in CAL by John Caldwell. This engine was the same engine used in the Nissan GTP with 1200HP with a twin turbo set up and 3liter engine. For GTS the engine was 700 to 800HP with intake restrictors to reduce flow for this class. So no mistery, he can sure make it work, as he says that is done in Europe everyday as it is done in the US as well. Keep it up Tasos!!!!!! If you guys need pictures etc. let me know, it seems you guys do not believe nothing but your own statements!!

Damn..I bow down to Red's infinite wisdom! http://forums.off-topic.net/images/smilies/bowdown.gif I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy..... *lol*

You just don't seem to get it, do you?

Let's just for argument's sake say the Hyundai website (which lists EVERY LAST CAR THEY MAKE) somehow missed the 1.6L variant that's in YOUR car. They only make it for Greece then, because everyone else gets the 1.6L Alpha (yes, one point SIX, not the 1.5L).

You are entirely missing the point.

The all-powerful N/A cars in Australia? Those cars are bored and stroked to TWO POINT THREE LITERS. The ones in Korea that make 190? They are bored and stoked to TWO POINT TWO LITERS. You didn't bore OR stroke your motor -- at least, that's not in your list.

They run THIRTEEN TO ONE compression. You "say" you're running 11:1? How so? You would have to shave the cylinder head almost 35 thousandths. That may not seem like much, but there's only 25 thousandths between the deck plate and the intake valve seat backing. You cannot shave it any further, period.

They run cams with better than TWO HUNDRED AND SEVENTY DEGREES OF DURATION. You're running at MOST 248 degrees... at MOST. They run HUGE lift on titanium springs -- you're running STOCK lift on STOCK springs.

They run FULL STANDALONE ENGINE MANAGEMENT -- they do not run a simple Apexi ITC and a reprogrammed stock ECU. Yes, we have little computers you can wire into the stock computer to advance timing, it's called they're made by Apexi and it's called an ITC. It doesn't matter, a Haltech/Motec/TecII will absolutely blow it away.

These guys have NO EXHAUST. They dump the header right there at the oil pan. You're telling us you even still have a catalyst!

They have SEVEN POUND billet aluminum flywheels. You have a shaved stocker... It might be as light as 15 pounds.

They have INDIVIDUAL THROTTLE BODIES -- one for each cylinder. You're running a hacked stocker.

And above ALL else... You mean to tell me you redline this thing at 9000 RPM's? On the STOCK PISTONS AND RODS?? Do you LIKE driving a time bomb? Do you know what happens to a BETA motor when you wrap it past even the 7500 mark? It becomes a Hyundai hand grenade.

Even if you have these wonderful STOCK cams, they were built for a motor that redlines at 6800 RPM's. They do NOT flow to 9000. The hydraulic lash adjusters will EXPLODE at 9000 RPM's. Hell, the stock springs will absolutely destroy themselves at 9000 RPM's.

YOU ARE NOT MAKING 190HP, at least not on the parts you are quoting. So tell me, what parts have you forgotten to list? Please?

The people on this website might buy your rhetoric, but I do not. I have access to the people who BUILT the 250HP N/A Australian Tiburon, hell it's not hardly even a BETA anymore. Same goes for the Koreans and their motors. By the time they finish, that motor is almost as big as some V6's on the market, and is ungodly undriveable in the city because it's so peaky.

NOTE
These motors are excellent for horsepower, but not for normally aspirated horsepower. You cannot compare this motor to something like a Honda or a Toyota, because it's entirely different. These motors love TORQUE, and they love TORQUE at low RPM's. Normally aspirated motors go backwards of that -- they make torque at HIGH RPM's, as to generate high horsepower.

Who are you going to believe? Someone who has never posted dyno sheets, who uses STOCK cams to make 190 horsepower at the tires when NOBODY ELSE IN THE WORLD can do it? Someone who cannot even show pictures of their car? Of the motor work? Who cannot even provide details about how they even built the car?

Put that car on the dyno, and run it in 4th gear to your 9000 RPM redline. And then post the results here. I want to see this glorious torque curve of this stock-cammed shaved-head machined-piston 100% stock rod and 100% stock bore and stroke BETA that makes 190HP at the tires.

It doesn't work that way.

-Red-