VERY Important ---- Compression Ratio
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Joined: Dec 2002
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hey cnk:
i dont see what all the fuss is about. i never intended to run any more than 5 psi intially on turb's car in the first place. i wanted to see how his car was going to react to boost. sorry, not everyone has as much experience as you claim you have. ( which is largely overestimated) what i do have is common sense. i'm not an idiot, and i can hold my own working on cars. ( i'm a mechanic, my dad is a mechanic, his dad was a mechanic, and so was his dad.) when did we ever say that we wanted to run 10+ psi on stock internals? oh, wait, thats right, NEVER!!!
what i think is happening here is that your getting uptight because we dont want to buy your whole kit. just because i think 550's and a t3/t4 is too much for right now, and that i understand that he has to use his car for the next 5 years in college, studying the books instead of doing countless hours of maintenence every week on a race car. IT IS NOT A RACE CAR! it is a daily driver that needs to be able to go back to hyundai if need be. why do countless hours of work spending more than you need to, when you can bring the car back to hyundai for something thats covered under warranty? hmmm... let me see. for a college guy on a budget, that sounds like suicide! one last thing. why, i ask you, why, would i wanna take his head off and send it to you so that you can work on it? talk about down time! your in SOUTH AFRICA for cryin out loud! that would take months! whats he supposed to do for a car the whole time?
i understand that you're just trying to protect your reputation, and thats good. who looks out for number one? nobody. thats why we have to do it ourselves. i have no problem with that. but i just think the way your going about it is wrong. trying to make us look bad and you look good is only going to hurt your reputation. just remember, whenever you point a finger at someone, you've always got four pointing back at you.
its as simple as that, :shrug:
kevo
[ January 01, 2003, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: kevo ]
i dont see what all the fuss is about. i never intended to run any more than 5 psi intially on turb's car in the first place. i wanted to see how his car was going to react to boost. sorry, not everyone has as much experience as you claim you have. ( which is largely overestimated) what i do have is common sense. i'm not an idiot, and i can hold my own working on cars. ( i'm a mechanic, my dad is a mechanic, his dad was a mechanic, and so was his dad.) when did we ever say that we wanted to run 10+ psi on stock internals? oh, wait, thats right, NEVER!!!
what i think is happening here is that your getting uptight because we dont want to buy your whole kit. just because i think 550's and a t3/t4 is too much for right now, and that i understand that he has to use his car for the next 5 years in college, studying the books instead of doing countless hours of maintenence every week on a race car. IT IS NOT A RACE CAR! it is a daily driver that needs to be able to go back to hyundai if need be. why do countless hours of work spending more than you need to, when you can bring the car back to hyundai for something thats covered under warranty? hmmm... let me see. for a college guy on a budget, that sounds like suicide! one last thing. why, i ask you, why, would i wanna take his head off and send it to you so that you can work on it? talk about down time! your in SOUTH AFRICA for cryin out loud! that would take months! whats he supposed to do for a car the whole time?
i understand that you're just trying to protect your reputation, and thats good. who looks out for number one? nobody. thats why we have to do it ourselves. i have no problem with that. but i just think the way your going about it is wrong. trying to make us look bad and you look good is only going to hurt your reputation. just remember, whenever you point a finger at someone, you've always got four pointing back at you.
its as simple as that, :shrug:
kevo
[ January 01, 2003, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: kevo ]
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,093
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dude, we're hyundai tuners. i use the term "tuners" losely, as we are not like hks tuners, but rather kids who want to dump money into their hyundais to hop them up. i've got to say that the resistance you're creating with your kit is hurting your reputation. you quoted me two different prices on two consecutive days, and i saw in your previous post about your sale that you quoted alz99 a different price than your retail price and your sale price, and he said that it was ok. no, it's not ok. hks, aem, any aftermarket manufacturer doesn't screen their customers to maintain or create their reputation. let's say all i bought from you is the downpipe, ran 15psi on stock internals, and went and told all of my friends how i wrecked my engine with too much boost. i doubt the last thing they're gonna say is, "hey, where did you get your downpipe from? that was the problem. i'm never gonna buy from that company." however, when you pose resistance to selling your products, that's kinda rude. people are asking your for your products because they see some worth in them over the KOmpEtoRs'. why not sell the parts. Yeah, alpine sucks, so people ask you to sell cnk parts so they can piece together a turbo. you know what, it's kinda fun to put hours of research into what one needs to make the car go fast, as opposed to buying a nice, pre-packaged kit. i just don't get it. perhaps, i never will. perhaps, this will hurt cnk's name more than cnk's pistons breaking because i ran 15psi on stock internals with no ignition retard.
[ January 01, 2003, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: turbulence ]
[ January 01, 2003, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: turbulence ]
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Joined: May 2001
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Alright, now we're starting to steer off-topic here. If CNK doesn't want to sell his parts individually, then it is wholly his decision to do so. I will not argue one bit about his business practices, because he keeps them for a reason. Either you get the kit with ALL the pieces, or you get no pieces. That's his deal, and there's no point in arguing.
Now, about the overheating...
The car making ~240 wheel horsepower on the stock compression and boost did not overheat, and I'm not sure what customer you are talking about. After the car was loaded with low compression pistons, a full standalone engine management system, a wholly new turbo, intercooler, even bigger injectors, upgraded wastegate and piping, it made about 370 wheel horsepower on 25 pounds of boost and was overheating.
I feel that 370 wheel horsepower (better than triple stock power) is cause enough for the car to overheat on the tiny stock radiator. Tuning is not the issue at this point, massive power increase is.
The general idea I'm trying to get across is that high compression and boost are not necessarily a problem. You continually mention EGT's, but the 240 horsepower model hit about 1550 at full throttle while running 11.5:1 A/F ratio, which is almost exactly perfect for a well-tuned turbo setup.
EDIT:
Care to explain how you've seen someone blow a stock METAL headgasket? Unless the head warps and/or pulls away from the block, the stock gasket is just about 100% "unblowable"
The stock gasket is what many of the 600+ wheel horsepower BETA's use in Korea.
[ January 02, 2003, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: Red ]
Now, about the overheating...
The car making ~240 wheel horsepower on the stock compression and boost did not overheat, and I'm not sure what customer you are talking about. After the car was loaded with low compression pistons, a full standalone engine management system, a wholly new turbo, intercooler, even bigger injectors, upgraded wastegate and piping, it made about 370 wheel horsepower on 25 pounds of boost and was overheating.
I feel that 370 wheel horsepower (better than triple stock power) is cause enough for the car to overheat on the tiny stock radiator. Tuning is not the issue at this point, massive power increase is.
The general idea I'm trying to get across is that high compression and boost are not necessarily a problem. You continually mention EGT's, but the 240 horsepower model hit about 1550 at full throttle while running 11.5:1 A/F ratio, which is almost exactly perfect for a well-tuned turbo setup.
EDIT:
Care to explain how you've seen someone blow a stock METAL headgasket? Unless the head warps and/or pulls away from the block, the stock gasket is just about 100% "unblowable"
The stock gasket is what many of the 600+ wheel horsepower BETA's use in Korea.
[ January 02, 2003, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: Red ]
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yeah, i know i kinda got off topic. sorry.
so, red, basically, it's not a matter of compression, it's a matter of tuning? yeah, more compression means higher cylinder temps and egts, but i've heard from other people, too, that tuning is the most important thing, and that as long as the timing retard and a/f ratio are right, basically, the engine is happy.
[ January 02, 2003, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: turbulence ]
so, red, basically, it's not a matter of compression, it's a matter of tuning? yeah, more compression means higher cylinder temps and egts, but i've heard from other people, too, that tuning is the most important thing, and that as long as the timing retard and a/f ratio are right, basically, the engine is happy.
[ January 02, 2003, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: turbulence ]
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There will always come a point when the compression is simply too high to allow any further boost. 12-15psi is probably "doable" on the stock compression, using good gasoline. Anything higher than that and you're either needing to start running C118 (leaded race gas) every day or you need to change your compression ratio.
All things being equal, a motor with higher static compression will be more thermally efficient. Essentially, the motor will get more out of what you put in. But after a certain point, you stop caring so much about thermal efficiency and just want overall output, which requires making some changes.
There are many variables that determine when your engine starts to detonate; static compression isn't as high on the list as you might think. Simple thinks like piston crown design, cylinder head design, casting flaws in the combustion chamber, type of spark plugs used, cam duration and timing, injector pintle design and spray pattern, intake temperatures, fuel temperatures... I think you get the idea.
As a "general rule", you can reduce static compression and make it easier for Joe Anybody to set his/her car up to run with boost. But being a bit more skillful can allow you to get a LOT more out of the engine without having to resort to reducing compression into the basement.
A gentleman here in Albuquerque was successfully running 12 pounds of boost on his B18C1 Integra GSR. That car comes stock with 10:1 compression, and he was making 280 wheel horsepower uncorrected at this altitude (better than a mile above sea level)
The car ran for many many months in that configuration, and he didn't drive it easily. He constantly was racing everything he could find, mostly because he was wanting to blow the motor up.
After a year, he eventually figured it was never going to break at this power level, and decided to install an NX 50-shot wet kit on it. He unfortunately didn't get the fuel solenoid wired right, and it blew up when it ran horribly lean the first time he sprayed.
Point of this story? Compression doesn't kill boosted motors, tuning does.
All things being equal, a motor with higher static compression will be more thermally efficient. Essentially, the motor will get more out of what you put in. But after a certain point, you stop caring so much about thermal efficiency and just want overall output, which requires making some changes.
There are many variables that determine when your engine starts to detonate; static compression isn't as high on the list as you might think. Simple thinks like piston crown design, cylinder head design, casting flaws in the combustion chamber, type of spark plugs used, cam duration and timing, injector pintle design and spray pattern, intake temperatures, fuel temperatures... I think you get the idea.
As a "general rule", you can reduce static compression and make it easier for Joe Anybody to set his/her car up to run with boost. But being a bit more skillful can allow you to get a LOT more out of the engine without having to resort to reducing compression into the basement.
A gentleman here in Albuquerque was successfully running 12 pounds of boost on his B18C1 Integra GSR. That car comes stock with 10:1 compression, and he was making 280 wheel horsepower uncorrected at this altitude (better than a mile above sea level)
The car ran for many many months in that configuration, and he didn't drive it easily. He constantly was racing everything he could find, mostly because he was wanting to blow the motor up.
After a year, he eventually figured it was never going to break at this power level, and decided to install an NX 50-shot wet kit on it. He unfortunately didn't get the fuel solenoid wired right, and it blew up when it ran horribly lean the first time he sprayed.
Point of this story? Compression doesn't kill boosted motors, tuning does.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Dec 2002
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Kevo --
OK we have a mis-understanding here --- firstly I have no problem selling individual parts to anyone who needs them. The whole thing went around Jeff decding what to do - either put together an entire kit himself and purchase cetain parts from me. OR purchase the complete CNK kit --- at the end of the day Jeff asked me about CR ratios and he wanted me to exclude the pistons out of the kit so that he could run the CNK kit on stock compression - to which i refused and still refuse - I will not sell my kit to anyone installing the CNK turbo kit on stock internals - PERIOD!
My product is designed and tested to be as REALIABLE as your stock everyday car and making STUPID decisions because you either too lazy or don't have enough time to either replace the pictons or lower the compression will not destroy my name - I don;t care if I loose sales - you either buy a RELAIBLE solution from me or you can purchase individual parts from me - if you purchase a kit - one thing you ARE GUARANTEED is it is RELIABLE and powerful!
Also I canot break up a HEAVILY discounted kit and start minusing retail costs of certain exclusions out the kit - as the kit is already ubeatable quality and cost wise!
I did not challenge your family's ability to install this kit either - so I don't know where you got that rubbish from!
You are free to have your opinions and if you think my product sucks - then way da go, but you aren't being forced to buy anything. If you have constructive comments please feel free to mail me, I'm a reasonable kinda guy!
Turbulence ---
Lets get one thing straight here --- I AM OPEN AND HONEST!! If I quoted you a price and it differs from someone else - then thats more than likely because your compnent list is different to someone elses or you have specific custom needs. I don't just sell off the shelf products, I CUSTOM MAKE ALOT of things fror people! Also if you got different pricing, just be aware that I have JUST introduced this special offer a few days ago, and it might have been just before the special that I quoted you. If you have any problems, please mail me and I will sort them out for you -- I can ell you that you WILL NOT find a better quality product for the cost I charge!
IF resistance to protect my name is loosig me sales - then I am perfectly happy with that! I will not sell a defective prouct or advise wrongly! I have recieved countless queries for intercoolers - to which I find out that the buyer wants to install this on a Normally Aspirated car!! I ALWAYS show interest in my clients and if I did not ask quesitons, I would have sold the cooler and gotten into a whole lot of issues about it!
If you buy a D/pipe and blow your engine - then OBVIOUSLY the D/pipe did not cause the damage - BUT if you purchased the entire kit excluding the pistons and installed it onto a stock CR and blew your engine - what would that make me look like?
RED -- it seems we do have different customers, but the customer I am talking about has the exact same setup that you mentioned..... anyways to comment on the overheating issue and others.......
The Tiburon I ran at 22PSI made similar power to you BUT the thermal loads on the head caused it to warp and unable to dissipate this heat, EVEN WITH INCREASED OIL PRESSURE --- sorry this head gasket blew QUICKLY! I can give you other referrences to engineers who have modified heads for this exact problem and have solved it. One of these is an engineer that NISSAN JP contacted about the R33 Skyline which he managed to modify the head and solve thermal load issues.
Tuning is and always will be the heart of any turbocharged engine - if you can;t tune an engine that is turbocharged then you are fighting a loosing battle to start with. Assuming your tuning is correct ---- I GUARANTEE you that you WILL break engines time and time again if you simply retard the timing more and more for each pound of boost you add --- WHY take shortcuts, just build the engine PROPERLY the first time and have a RELIABLE and robust PROBLEM FREE car that FLIES!
If it was so simple to run high compression by just retarding timing more and more - I wouldn;t lower the compression ratio in my kit I WOULD INCREASE IT!
Why don't the serious racers use high compression, high boost engines in their races? I can tell you that if they did, they would not have a reliable solution and the gains with running that slightly higher compression is not worth the downside it introduces! They build engines with a certain amount of reliability!
The mor eyou retard the ignition, the later the plug fires, and eventually your combustoin will be taking place when the exhaust valve is fully open ---- fancy picking up your turbocharger housing and melted D/pipe off the ground?? Just to somment also - Anti Lag systems like the motec use the same principal aswell --- the system will pull back the timing and overfuel the engine - causing flames out the exhaust, the combustion is taking place OUT THE EXHAUST PORT! This spools up the turbocharger yes, but to what detriment!?
There are so many 600 and 800HP miracle cars out there and so few reliability stories out there. If you make 1000HP on a Beta 2 engine WHOOOPI DING!! Who cares, all I care about is RELIABILITY! Let me ask ALL you 'tech-heads out there a DIRECT question.
"WOULD YOU DESIGN A TURBO KIT WITH YOUR COMPANY NAME ON IT THAT INCORPORATES NO LOW COMPRESSION PARTS TO RUN 300HP AND SELL IT WORLDWIDE?" I am interested to see the responces to this one!
Using 'good' gas ...... RED I build STREETABLE EVERY DAY DRIVEN KITS, that will last you 100 000miles trouble free if maintained properly!! ----- if you have to run around looking for 'good' gas just to drive your car - then whats the point in the first place!? --- just for those extra 10 - 20 HP??? If fuel was so cheap I would simply run racing fuel 102 octane ALL THE TIME and forget abou tthe ignition retard completely and then I would feel more comfortable running on stock compression up to a MAX of 15PSI !!
At the end of the day I manufacture a kit that lowers the CR to SAFE levels EVEN if you land up getting a FOUL tank of gas - If you do, your engine is not threatenned at all because the necessary precautions and designs have been thought of and put into place (IF you installed the pistons supplied to lower the CR like you should) --- CNK = RELIABILITY FIRST!!!!
OK we have a mis-understanding here --- firstly I have no problem selling individual parts to anyone who needs them. The whole thing went around Jeff decding what to do - either put together an entire kit himself and purchase cetain parts from me. OR purchase the complete CNK kit --- at the end of the day Jeff asked me about CR ratios and he wanted me to exclude the pistons out of the kit so that he could run the CNK kit on stock compression - to which i refused and still refuse - I will not sell my kit to anyone installing the CNK turbo kit on stock internals - PERIOD!
My product is designed and tested to be as REALIABLE as your stock everyday car and making STUPID decisions because you either too lazy or don't have enough time to either replace the pictons or lower the compression will not destroy my name - I don;t care if I loose sales - you either buy a RELAIBLE solution from me or you can purchase individual parts from me - if you purchase a kit - one thing you ARE GUARANTEED is it is RELIABLE and powerful!
Also I canot break up a HEAVILY discounted kit and start minusing retail costs of certain exclusions out the kit - as the kit is already ubeatable quality and cost wise!
I did not challenge your family's ability to install this kit either - so I don't know where you got that rubbish from!
You are free to have your opinions and if you think my product sucks - then way da go, but you aren't being forced to buy anything. If you have constructive comments please feel free to mail me, I'm a reasonable kinda guy!
Turbulence ---
Lets get one thing straight here --- I AM OPEN AND HONEST!! If I quoted you a price and it differs from someone else - then thats more than likely because your compnent list is different to someone elses or you have specific custom needs. I don't just sell off the shelf products, I CUSTOM MAKE ALOT of things fror people! Also if you got different pricing, just be aware that I have JUST introduced this special offer a few days ago, and it might have been just before the special that I quoted you. If you have any problems, please mail me and I will sort them out for you -- I can ell you that you WILL NOT find a better quality product for the cost I charge!
IF resistance to protect my name is loosig me sales - then I am perfectly happy with that! I will not sell a defective prouct or advise wrongly! I have recieved countless queries for intercoolers - to which I find out that the buyer wants to install this on a Normally Aspirated car!! I ALWAYS show interest in my clients and if I did not ask quesitons, I would have sold the cooler and gotten into a whole lot of issues about it!
If you buy a D/pipe and blow your engine - then OBVIOUSLY the D/pipe did not cause the damage - BUT if you purchased the entire kit excluding the pistons and installed it onto a stock CR and blew your engine - what would that make me look like?
RED -- it seems we do have different customers, but the customer I am talking about has the exact same setup that you mentioned..... anyways to comment on the overheating issue and others.......
The Tiburon I ran at 22PSI made similar power to you BUT the thermal loads on the head caused it to warp and unable to dissipate this heat, EVEN WITH INCREASED OIL PRESSURE --- sorry this head gasket blew QUICKLY! I can give you other referrences to engineers who have modified heads for this exact problem and have solved it. One of these is an engineer that NISSAN JP contacted about the R33 Skyline which he managed to modify the head and solve thermal load issues.
Tuning is and always will be the heart of any turbocharged engine - if you can;t tune an engine that is turbocharged then you are fighting a loosing battle to start with. Assuming your tuning is correct ---- I GUARANTEE you that you WILL break engines time and time again if you simply retard the timing more and more for each pound of boost you add --- WHY take shortcuts, just build the engine PROPERLY the first time and have a RELIABLE and robust PROBLEM FREE car that FLIES!
If it was so simple to run high compression by just retarding timing more and more - I wouldn;t lower the compression ratio in my kit I WOULD INCREASE IT!
Why don't the serious racers use high compression, high boost engines in their races? I can tell you that if they did, they would not have a reliable solution and the gains with running that slightly higher compression is not worth the downside it introduces! They build engines with a certain amount of reliability!
The mor eyou retard the ignition, the later the plug fires, and eventually your combustoin will be taking place when the exhaust valve is fully open ---- fancy picking up your turbocharger housing and melted D/pipe off the ground?? Just to somment also - Anti Lag systems like the motec use the same principal aswell --- the system will pull back the timing and overfuel the engine - causing flames out the exhaust, the combustion is taking place OUT THE EXHAUST PORT! This spools up the turbocharger yes, but to what detriment!?
There are so many 600 and 800HP miracle cars out there and so few reliability stories out there. If you make 1000HP on a Beta 2 engine WHOOOPI DING!! Who cares, all I care about is RELIABILITY! Let me ask ALL you 'tech-heads out there a DIRECT question.
"WOULD YOU DESIGN A TURBO KIT WITH YOUR COMPANY NAME ON IT THAT INCORPORATES NO LOW COMPRESSION PARTS TO RUN 300HP AND SELL IT WORLDWIDE?" I am interested to see the responces to this one!
Using 'good' gas ...... RED I build STREETABLE EVERY DAY DRIVEN KITS, that will last you 100 000miles trouble free if maintained properly!! ----- if you have to run around looking for 'good' gas just to drive your car - then whats the point in the first place!? --- just for those extra 10 - 20 HP??? If fuel was so cheap I would simply run racing fuel 102 octane ALL THE TIME and forget abou tthe ignition retard completely and then I would feel more comfortable running on stock compression up to a MAX of 15PSI !!
At the end of the day I manufacture a kit that lowers the CR to SAFE levels EVEN if you land up getting a FOUL tank of gas - If you do, your engine is not threatenned at all because the necessary precautions and designs have been thought of and put into place (IF you installed the pistons supplied to lower the CR like you should) --- CNK = RELIABILITY FIRST!!!!
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 613
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QUOTE
kevo:
hey cnk:
i dont see what all the fuss is about. i never intended to run any more than 5 psi intially on turb's car in the first place. i wanted to see how his car was going to react to boost. sorry, not everyone has as much experience as you claim you have. ( which is largely overestimated) what i do have is common sense. i'm not an idiot, and i can hold my own working on cars. ( i'm a mechanic, my dad is a mechanic, his dad was a mechanic, and so was his dad.) when did we ever say that we wanted to run 10+ psi on stock internals? oh, wait, thats right, NEVER!!!
what i think is happening here is that your getting uptight because we dont want to buy your whole kit. just because i think 550's and a t3/t4 is too much for right now, and that i understand that he has to use his car for the next 5 years in college, studying the books instead of doing countless hours of maintenence every week on a race car. IT IS NOT A RACE CAR! it is a daily driver that needs to be able to go back to hyundai if need be. why do countless hours of work spending more than you need to, when you can bring the car back to hyundai for something thats covered under warranty? hmmm... let me see. for a college guy on a budget, that sounds like suicide! one last thing. why, i ask you, why, would i wanna take his head off and send it to you so that you can work on it? talk about down time! your in SOUTH AFRICA for cryin out loud! that would take months! whats he supposed to do for a car the whole time?
i understand that you're just trying to protect your reputation, and thats good. who looks out for number one? nobody. thats why we have to do it ourselves. i have no problem with that. but i just think the way your going about it is wrong. trying to make us look bad and you look good is only going to hurt your reputation. just remember, whenever you point a finger at someone, you've always got four pointing back at you.
its as simple as that, :shrug:
kevo
Kevo, you have to understand that Chris is trying to run a business that protects his interests as much as yours. Even if you say you will stay at only 5psi, how long do you think that would last until you tried "just a little bit more boost." And what happens when the engine does blow b/c of the little bit more boost? The customer comes back to the manufacturer complaining about how the apparent product destroyed his engine even though he did everything right.hey cnk:
i dont see what all the fuss is about. i never intended to run any more than 5 psi intially on turb's car in the first place. i wanted to see how his car was going to react to boost. sorry, not everyone has as much experience as you claim you have. ( which is largely overestimated) what i do have is common sense. i'm not an idiot, and i can hold my own working on cars. ( i'm a mechanic, my dad is a mechanic, his dad was a mechanic, and so was his dad.) when did we ever say that we wanted to run 10+ psi on stock internals? oh, wait, thats right, NEVER!!!
what i think is happening here is that your getting uptight because we dont want to buy your whole kit. just because i think 550's and a t3/t4 is too much for right now, and that i understand that he has to use his car for the next 5 years in college, studying the books instead of doing countless hours of maintenence every week on a race car. IT IS NOT A RACE CAR! it is a daily driver that needs to be able to go back to hyundai if need be. why do countless hours of work spending more than you need to, when you can bring the car back to hyundai for something thats covered under warranty? hmmm... let me see. for a college guy on a budget, that sounds like suicide! one last thing. why, i ask you, why, would i wanna take his head off and send it to you so that you can work on it? talk about down time! your in SOUTH AFRICA for cryin out loud! that would take months! whats he supposed to do for a car the whole time?
i understand that you're just trying to protect your reputation, and thats good. who looks out for number one? nobody. thats why we have to do it ourselves. i have no problem with that. but i just think the way your going about it is wrong. trying to make us look bad and you look good is only going to hurt your reputation. just remember, whenever you point a finger at someone, you've always got four pointing back at you.
its as simple as that, :shrug:
kevo
As far as Chris' knowledge in the automotive tuning industry. Overestimated? How could you even say that.
Bottom line is, your getting mad over nothing. If he doesn't want a quality, reliable kit. There are other short cuts, other companies. Companies that will abandon you if you have a problem. CNK is not one of them.
YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.
its as simple as that, :shrug:
