VERY Important ---- Compression Ratio
12-28-2002, 04:09 AM
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VERY Important ---- Compression Ratio
Hi all,
I have recieved about 5 DISTURBING Emails from people who want to run the CNK T3/T4 hybrid turbo kit with STOCK compression ratio and internals!!!
Let me put it to you in plain english - if you want to take shortcuts, you are going to BURN YOUR FINGERS!! I manufacture turbo systems for cars and bikes for a living and work with a variety of engines, every day of my life and one thing I can tell you is that since I own a Hyundai Tiburon 2.0 16V Beta FX --- I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT WHEN IT COMES TO THESE ENGINES - In fact I have probably broken and re-built more of these BETA 2 engines through testing and development of my products than all of you on this board put together!
Listen to me when I tell you that if you run stock CR with this kit at 10PSI you WILL blow the engine PERIOD!! If you install a programmable ignition controller and pull back the timing, you will have EGT's SKY HIGH and you WILL BLOW THE ENGINE IN TIME!!
Why do you all want to take shortcuts with performance - sorry to say but there is NO FAST AND EASY WAY TO MAKE POWER - If there was I would have been first in line - I PROMISE YOU THAT!
I understand that you all want to maintain EASE of installation and a fast install procedure to get the car up and running as fast as possible obviously not touching the bottom end (pistons, rings and rods etc) would be the preferred choice. BUT you MUST STILL LOWER THE CR - PERIOD!
What I strongly suggest is that you pull off the head (30 minutes work with a 10mm, 14mm and 17mm socket and ratchet and 10mm spline and 8mm spline, pliers and a screw driver) If you want a video of this I have one too! Take off the head and ship it to me - it will probably cost you $60.00 or thereabouts for shipping - I will build the head up and lower the compression ratio for you and de-carbonize and lightly polish the valves, LAP the valves (re-seat them) and clean all the water and oil jackets for you - for the price of the pistons , rings and bearings.
I will pay for the shipping back to you with the other components in the kit INCLUDING A NEW STEEL HEAD GASKET - which I will supply at my cost.
Otherwise I WILL NOT sell the kit to you if you plan on using your stock Compression ratio! I don't care If I loose sales on this - I will NOT allow my name to be destroyed because someone wanted to take a shortcut!
Sorry for the hard-*** post - but I feel very strongly about this topic and will not budge!
RULE#1 --- With Performance RELIABILITY comes first - Chris Kambouris - CNK Performance Systems
[ December 28, 2002, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: CNK Performance ]
I have recieved about 5 DISTURBING Emails from people who want to run the CNK T3/T4 hybrid turbo kit with STOCK compression ratio and internals!!!
Let me put it to you in plain english - if you want to take shortcuts, you are going to BURN YOUR FINGERS!! I manufacture turbo systems for cars and bikes for a living and work with a variety of engines, every day of my life and one thing I can tell you is that since I own a Hyundai Tiburon 2.0 16V Beta FX --- I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT WHEN IT COMES TO THESE ENGINES - In fact I have probably broken and re-built more of these BETA 2 engines through testing and development of my products than all of you on this board put together!
Listen to me when I tell you that if you run stock CR with this kit at 10PSI you WILL blow the engine PERIOD!! If you install a programmable ignition controller and pull back the timing, you will have EGT's SKY HIGH and you WILL BLOW THE ENGINE IN TIME!!
Why do you all want to take shortcuts with performance - sorry to say but there is NO FAST AND EASY WAY TO MAKE POWER - If there was I would have been first in line - I PROMISE YOU THAT!
I understand that you all want to maintain EASE of installation and a fast install procedure to get the car up and running as fast as possible obviously not touching the bottom end (pistons, rings and rods etc) would be the preferred choice. BUT you MUST STILL LOWER THE CR - PERIOD!
What I strongly suggest is that you pull off the head (30 minutes work with a 10mm, 14mm and 17mm socket and ratchet and 10mm spline and 8mm spline, pliers and a screw driver) If you want a video of this I have one too! Take off the head and ship it to me - it will probably cost you $60.00 or thereabouts for shipping - I will build the head up and lower the compression ratio for you and de-carbonize and lightly polish the valves, LAP the valves (re-seat them) and clean all the water and oil jackets for you - for the price of the pistons , rings and bearings.
I will pay for the shipping back to you with the other components in the kit INCLUDING A NEW STEEL HEAD GASKET - which I will supply at my cost.
Otherwise I WILL NOT sell the kit to you if you plan on using your stock Compression ratio! I don't care If I loose sales on this - I will NOT allow my name to be destroyed because someone wanted to take a shortcut!
Sorry for the hard-*** post - but I feel very strongly about this topic and will not budge!
RULE#1 --- With Performance RELIABILITY comes first - Chris Kambouris - CNK Performance Systems
[ December 28, 2002, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: CNK Performance ]
12-30-2002, 01:11 AM
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Vehicle: 1999 Elantra
Ok, after you do your magic on the head, what about the pistons? Aren't our pistons the weakest link to high power? Or is it just the powerful forces of high compression and high boost playing bye-bye engine?
12-30-2002, 02:36 AM
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with stock compression on ANY engine - the pistons become the weakest link - once the compression ratio is dropped your stock pistons and rings (provided they are in good working order and not worn!) will be perfect for up to 15PSI - this is still reliable at 8.5 to 1 CR
Remember the kit I supply is a high performance setup - but I provide it to you at low boost of 7PSI --- at this boost when tuned properly you will have about 80% more power than you have in stock form. Once you increase the boost and do the necessary tuning the power will increase to around over 300WHP at around 15PSI
Remember the kit I supply is a high performance setup - but I provide it to you at low boost of 7PSI --- at this boost when tuned properly you will have about 80% more power than you have in stock form. Once you increase the boost and do the necessary tuning the power will increase to around over 300WHP at around 15PSI
12-30-2002, 07:23 AM
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As a point of contention...
There are several people running 10-12psi on stock compression, and even stock pistons, using a T3 or 14B/16B mitsu-style compressor on the Hyundai BETA I motor.
Higher compression and boost is not necessarily a death sentence, but it does require a lot more skill in tuning before you can do it safely. 11psi on the stock 10.3:1 compression, 440cc injectors, an MSD DIS2 unit with timing retarded 1.5 degrees per PSI and a used intercooler from an Isuzu turbodiesel yielded 237 wheel horsepower. The engine made this power for nine months, at which point the owner simply decided to upgrade to a fully built motor and aim for much larger horsepower.
As a general rule, you do not want to use a "decompressor" plate to lower your compression. Putting space between the piston crowns at TDC and the cylinder head quench pads can actually be a cause of detonation rather than a solution...
The cooling and fuel stratification properties of that space between the pistons and head cannot be understated; many owners of Eclipses and Supras have problems with higher cylinder head temps and worse detonation when the quench pads are removed from the head to lower compression in that way.
Lowering compression is a good idea; your target power will dictate what compression you should run. But simply stating that lower compression is always required is a bit misguided... Example? An 11:1 compression F20A engine in the USDM Honda S2000 can be seen eating 12psi and making around 340 wheel horsepower. It's not the compression that kills you, it's typically the tuning. Tuning a high compression BOOSTED car is a very tricky task, and most people will unfortunately burn a piston if they've never attempted it before.
There are several people running 10-12psi on stock compression, and even stock pistons, using a T3 or 14B/16B mitsu-style compressor on the Hyundai BETA I motor.
Higher compression and boost is not necessarily a death sentence, but it does require a lot more skill in tuning before you can do it safely. 11psi on the stock 10.3:1 compression, 440cc injectors, an MSD DIS2 unit with timing retarded 1.5 degrees per PSI and a used intercooler from an Isuzu turbodiesel yielded 237 wheel horsepower. The engine made this power for nine months, at which point the owner simply decided to upgrade to a fully built motor and aim for much larger horsepower.
As a general rule, you do not want to use a "decompressor" plate to lower your compression. Putting space between the piston crowns at TDC and the cylinder head quench pads can actually be a cause of detonation rather than a solution...
The cooling and fuel stratification properties of that space between the pistons and head cannot be understated; many owners of Eclipses and Supras have problems with higher cylinder head temps and worse detonation when the quench pads are removed from the head to lower compression in that way.
Lowering compression is a good idea; your target power will dictate what compression you should run. But simply stating that lower compression is always required is a bit misguided... Example? An 11:1 compression F20A engine in the USDM Honda S2000 can be seen eating 12psi and making around 340 wheel horsepower. It's not the compression that kills you, it's typically the tuning. Tuning a high compression BOOSTED car is a very tricky task, and most people will unfortunately burn a piston if they've never attempted it before.
12-31-2002, 01:31 PM
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The main question that is still looming is whether the stock pistons and rings along with the head decompression would hold all of the power that the hyper-u's can. Would someone be able to get 300 hp out of the lowered compression head setup while keeping everything else the same? Would it take a larger amount tuning? Would they need new rings in the not so far future? Would they be better off at hp levels of ~250?
I don't see what the big deal is with changing out the pistons anyway, but I like to play Devils advocate.
I don't see what the big deal is with changing out the pistons anyway, but I like to play Devils advocate.
01-01-2003, 01:38 AM
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Red ---
regarding the tuning side of a high compression forced induction engine --- sorry bud but if you are running 24 degrees of ignition advance at 15PSI which is a safe level of advance on a low compression engine - I'm saorry to say that retarding the ignition by 22.5 degrees from stock is in plain english - stupid! Your EGT's will SKYROCKET which is happening on this same customers car you mention thats why he has come to me asking for a bigger radiator --- Since a larger radiator for ANY NA engine that has been turbocharged is a good idea - the fact remains that his temp problems are NOT from the high outside ambient temperatures but instead it is from the poor tuning!
I call it poor because it is a fix to be able to run that high boost level - it is NEVER seen on any factory manufactured cars or serious race cars. If you want to boost 5 - 7PSI on stock compression - sure - with a slight ignition retard which will keep EGT's down, but anything higher than that is plain and simple stupid.
I have seen engines blow head gaskets and develop blow by past the rings and the engine started to smoke and deteriorate onwards from there - I have seen this countless times because people want to take shortcuts - I said it before and I say it again....
If you want to do something - do it RIGHT the first time - if you take shortcuts you WILL burn your fingers.
Running stock pistons and rings with lowered compression at 8.5 to 1 - WILL hold up to around 270WHP no problems at all! I wouldn't take a chnce and go more than that on the stock pistons - anyway that is ALOT of power already!
[ January 01, 2003, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: CNK Performance ]
regarding the tuning side of a high compression forced induction engine --- sorry bud but if you are running 24 degrees of ignition advance at 15PSI which is a safe level of advance on a low compression engine - I'm saorry to say that retarding the ignition by 22.5 degrees from stock is in plain english - stupid! Your EGT's will SKYROCKET which is happening on this same customers car you mention thats why he has come to me asking for a bigger radiator --- Since a larger radiator for ANY NA engine that has been turbocharged is a good idea - the fact remains that his temp problems are NOT from the high outside ambient temperatures but instead it is from the poor tuning!
I call it poor because it is a fix to be able to run that high boost level - it is NEVER seen on any factory manufactured cars or serious race cars. If you want to boost 5 - 7PSI on stock compression - sure - with a slight ignition retard which will keep EGT's down, but anything higher than that is plain and simple stupid.
I have seen engines blow head gaskets and develop blow by past the rings and the engine started to smoke and deteriorate onwards from there - I have seen this countless times because people want to take shortcuts - I said it before and I say it again....
If you want to do something - do it RIGHT the first time - if you take shortcuts you WILL burn your fingers.
Running stock pistons and rings with lowered compression at 8.5 to 1 - WILL hold up to around 270WHP no problems at all! I wouldn't take a chnce and go more than that on the stock pistons - anyway that is ALOT of power already!
[ January 01, 2003, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: CNK Performance ]