Help me please!!! n/a or forced induction
03-31-2005, 05:41 PM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Help me please!!! n/a or forced induction
I am turning my tibby into an all out racer but i am torn between na and forced induction...i want the na setup because it just saounds absolutly bad@$$ and its constant power instead of turbo lag..but then i get more power out of a turbo/ supercharger...superchargers dont like high rpms like a turbo but i am also on a little bit of a budget because im in college and only have a couple partial sponsors...ne thoughts???
03-31-2005, 05:52 PM
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What's your budget? Is this only car/daily driver? What exactly do you mean by "all out racer" ? How much power are looking for? Need these details and probably more to answer your question...
03-31-2005, 06:21 PM
#3
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It will be a race car, but occasionally i will take it on the street to show it off/cruise a little and im just looking for enough to get into the 12's with my car stripped (probably about 250whp will be enough considering i only use 1st and 2nd gear in a race, (getting it bored/stroked to 2.4l))...as for the budget i'd say 8k, but i do get 50% off most parts and i do want to do some aero mods as well for better auto-x ability
03-31-2005, 06:46 PM
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Rancho Palos Verdes, CA
Posts: 910
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Even if you go ALL OUT with N/A power, you're limited to about 200-225 WHP. And that's assuming you spend about $5000 to $7000 on the motor. If you add in nitrous, you could raise that to about 300 HP, but only for short periods of time.... (do you live your life a quarter mile at a time?)
For that same $5000 to $7000 (or less) you could easily have over 350 WHP with a turbocharger setup.
It's a matter of what's important to you. In the end, Turbocharging is cheaper for more HP. The N/A route is NOT a route most folks have gone with Beta motors. You'd be blazing a new trail, but that also means you may run into problems others haven't or needed new parts others didn't before (and thus might not be available).
Each has it's pros and cons. If you build the engine/turbocharger system right, it's entirely possible to have 300-350 WHP and have little/no turbo lag. It's also possible (and most folks do it) to have 200-250 WHP cars with 3-5 seconds of no power before boost builds.
Don't base your "turbo lag" assumptions on what other folks have done...you're assuming they built it right.
Why not ask how you can build a 300-350 WHP car with little/no turbo lag?
Or Ask how to build a 200-225 WHP N/A engine.
Asking folks WHICH you SHOULD do is asking other people to make up your mind for you. Go with the will of your sponsors...sure, I can understand that, they hold the $$$ strings. But don't go on the advice of folks on the internet. Follow your own desire...obey your thirst!
For that same $5000 to $7000 (or less) you could easily have over 350 WHP with a turbocharger setup.
It's a matter of what's important to you. In the end, Turbocharging is cheaper for more HP. The N/A route is NOT a route most folks have gone with Beta motors. You'd be blazing a new trail, but that also means you may run into problems others haven't or needed new parts others didn't before (and thus might not be available).
Each has it's pros and cons. If you build the engine/turbocharger system right, it's entirely possible to have 300-350 WHP and have little/no turbo lag. It's also possible (and most folks do it) to have 200-250 WHP cars with 3-5 seconds of no power before boost builds.
Don't base your "turbo lag" assumptions on what other folks have done...you're assuming they built it right.
Why not ask how you can build a 300-350 WHP car with little/no turbo lag?
Or Ask how to build a 200-225 WHP N/A engine.
Asking folks WHICH you SHOULD do is asking other people to make up your mind for you. Go with the will of your sponsors...sure, I can understand that, they hold the $$$ strings. But don't go on the advice of folks on the internet. Follow your own desire...obey your thirst!
03-31-2005, 07:10 PM
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,722
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vehicle: 2001 Hyundai Tiburon
250whp is not getting you anywhere near 12s... and your not going to be just using 1st/2nd gear. Trap speeds for running 12s are near 110ish mph with FWD... even if you did manage to get gearing like that the Tib would never make enough low-end torque for you to drive it on the street, N/A or turbo. It wouldn't even make it to the line at the strip.
If you want a mid 12 with FWD on slicks with a stripped interior your going to need 350ish whp.
If you want a mid 12 with FWD on slicks with a stripped interior your going to need 350ish whp.
03-31-2005, 07:56 PM
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 4,694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I kinda have to disagree with Random.
350whp would not be very easy to achieve with $7000. You will need to go through a lot of trouble to do so. Turbo kit itself would be around $3200. Now add new axles, LSD, pistons, rods, Haltech, bigger tires, airram, injectors, TB, wideband, installation of internals, lots of tuning, etc. And I would not want to max out t3/t4 that comes with speed factor's kit. I would go to GT series, which would bring the cost up another $700. Do the math and see for yourself man.
I think turbocharging on stock engine is not very smart. So, unless your pockets are big and you plan on rebuilding your engine to support over 300whp I would not suggest wasting money on a turbo kit.
With N/A you can get up to 150-160whp or so with about $1500 then put 90 shot nitrous with purge kit and a bottle heater for another $700 and you will be at 240-250whp. 250whp should be enough to get you into mid-high 13s with a good driver.
Driving a car with N/A mods having 150-160whp daily is still nice and you don't have to worry about anything much. Just drive it and enjoy it.
On the other hand driving a turbocharged car will require keeping an eye on everything and worrying about something going wrong because once you go to FI it never stops, something will go wrong and you will need to get it fixed again and again even if it's something little.
Sorry for a long paragraph, but I wanted to express myself. All of this is just my opinions and you don't have to agree with them, just think of what I said.
350whp would not be very easy to achieve with $7000. You will need to go through a lot of trouble to do so. Turbo kit itself would be around $3200. Now add new axles, LSD, pistons, rods, Haltech, bigger tires, airram, injectors, TB, wideband, installation of internals, lots of tuning, etc. And I would not want to max out t3/t4 that comes with speed factor's kit. I would go to GT series, which would bring the cost up another $700. Do the math and see for yourself man.
I think turbocharging on stock engine is not very smart. So, unless your pockets are big and you plan on rebuilding your engine to support over 300whp I would not suggest wasting money on a turbo kit.
With N/A you can get up to 150-160whp or so with about $1500 then put 90 shot nitrous with purge kit and a bottle heater for another $700 and you will be at 240-250whp. 250whp should be enough to get you into mid-high 13s with a good driver.
Driving a car with N/A mods having 150-160whp daily is still nice and you don't have to worry about anything much. Just drive it and enjoy it.
On the other hand driving a turbocharged car will require keeping an eye on everything and worrying about something going wrong because once you go to FI it never stops, something will go wrong and you will need to get it fixed again and again even if it's something little.
Sorry for a long paragraph, but I wanted to express myself. All of this is just my opinions and you don't have to agree with them, just think of what I said.
03-31-2005, 08:21 PM
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,722
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vehicle: 2001 Hyundai Tiburon
I agree with OP on most points. I like to go more in depth. tongue.gif
The T3/T04E that Tim's Extreme Kit comes with is a very large T3, it could probably produce 400whp easily while still being well within its efficiency range. I don't see a need for a bigger turbo there, it has plenty of beefiness to it.
Axles I'm still iffy about. The Tib's axles look fairly decent, and I've only heard of one axle breaking, which could be from it being an old drivetrain thats not well-suited to high power. I think anything well cared for and under 60k miles on the drivetrain should be able to handle most of what you throw at it as long as you don't rip on it too often.
LSD is a given. With traction being such as issue, and that the stock differential is weak, I'll give ya this. So tack on another $800ish to Tim's Extreme Kit (We're now @ $4000)
Pistons and rods are once again, a given. Wiseco for pistons and Pauter for rods should drive the price up.. although once again if the rods are in decent shape they should be like the axles. Able to take a beating every once in a while as a weekend track warrior for a few passes. If you managed to drop in a Beta with low mileage like mine, they should be okey dokey. I'll give half of what the rods cost (We're now @ $5400ish).
Haltec may be a tad extreme if your only running 350whp. An SMT-6 should be able to handle it fine if tuned correctly. A few hours on the dyno ($250ish) plus the cost brings us to $6000 dollars (getting expensive?).
Tim's kit comes with injectors so thats out the window. If you want to go cheapo, porting the stock TB and IM should still yield good gains, and is free if you have a die grinder and a little bit of time and finesse. I love doing my own port work. You could also have fun with the IM ports and the exhaust ports as well. I love those little tools. Still around $6000.
Now for all the fun that a turbo brings out. You will need to monitor things very closely... N/A is much more forgiving when it comes to errors. And for miscellaneous parts, $7000 total after you go buy some slicks.
-------
What the hell, I'll have fun and do a $6500 N/A build. Intake stretch comes first, I hate the untunability of ITBs so thats out of the question. Grabbing an AEM CAI is a decent beginning, along with once again doing your own port work on the TB/IM and everywhere else. Get the exhaust stretch done. Basic bolt-ons would have you around 160whp for $1000 if spent correctly. Then you get into those nice Hi-Comp pistons and Hi-Cams. I think the Haltec comes into play here, even though your sitting at less HP than with the turbocharger, more tuning is involved after bumping up compression and the camshafts. $4000 for probably 180 to the wheels. Then you buy your good old friend the direct-port nitrous (must be safe... progressive setup, bottle warmer, tuning, window switch, and all the goodies). Once again probably around $5600 and then you buy some slicks.
The T3/T04E that Tim's Extreme Kit comes with is a very large T3, it could probably produce 400whp easily while still being well within its efficiency range. I don't see a need for a bigger turbo there, it has plenty of beefiness to it.
Axles I'm still iffy about. The Tib's axles look fairly decent, and I've only heard of one axle breaking, which could be from it being an old drivetrain thats not well-suited to high power. I think anything well cared for and under 60k miles on the drivetrain should be able to handle most of what you throw at it as long as you don't rip on it too often.
LSD is a given. With traction being such as issue, and that the stock differential is weak, I'll give ya this. So tack on another $800ish to Tim's Extreme Kit (We're now @ $4000)
Pistons and rods are once again, a given. Wiseco for pistons and Pauter for rods should drive the price up.. although once again if the rods are in decent shape they should be like the axles. Able to take a beating every once in a while as a weekend track warrior for a few passes. If you managed to drop in a Beta with low mileage like mine, they should be okey dokey. I'll give half of what the rods cost (We're now @ $5400ish).
Haltec may be a tad extreme if your only running 350whp. An SMT-6 should be able to handle it fine if tuned correctly. A few hours on the dyno ($250ish) plus the cost brings us to $6000 dollars (getting expensive?).
Tim's kit comes with injectors so thats out the window. If you want to go cheapo, porting the stock TB and IM should still yield good gains, and is free if you have a die grinder and a little bit of time and finesse. I love doing my own port work. You could also have fun with the IM ports and the exhaust ports as well. I love those little tools. Still around $6000.
Now for all the fun that a turbo brings out. You will need to monitor things very closely... N/A is much more forgiving when it comes to errors. And for miscellaneous parts, $7000 total after you go buy some slicks.
-------
What the hell, I'll have fun and do a $6500 N/A build. Intake stretch comes first, I hate the untunability of ITBs so thats out of the question. Grabbing an AEM CAI is a decent beginning, along with once again doing your own port work on the TB/IM and everywhere else. Get the exhaust stretch done. Basic bolt-ons would have you around 160whp for $1000 if spent correctly. Then you get into those nice Hi-Comp pistons and Hi-Cams. I think the Haltec comes into play here, even though your sitting at less HP than with the turbocharger, more tuning is involved after bumping up compression and the camshafts. $4000 for probably 180 to the wheels. Then you buy your good old friend the direct-port nitrous (must be safe... progressive setup, bottle warmer, tuning, window switch, and all the goodies). Once again probably around $5600 and then you buy some slicks.
03-31-2005, 09:16 PM
#9
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
when i said i only use 2nd gear i mean auto-x because drag racing doesnt appeal to me as much as pushing your car to the absolute limit then finding a way to break the barrier...a straight line, to me, is pointless....as for asking everyone online...i am just looking for an opinion because no matter what you say everyone care about what other people think of their car to some point
