Haltech Plug And Play Harness - Tests Complete!
Senior Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,497
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Vehicle: 1998/Hyundai/Tiburon FX
Thanks java!
You could always get this from Damon and repair your stock harness to save you the headache when you go through emissions!
Hey, what kind of timing are you running near redline? Of course you are boosted so it should be lower than mine, but I am at 27 degrees of advance at about 6000 rpm. Steadily increasing from 19 @ 3000. With it set that way, it feels as fast or faster than it did with the stock ecu. Of course I figure I should pick up a couple hp by removing the maf and putting 2.75" pipe in its place, but I wanted to see if that was insanely advanced or if you were running something similar. For example, if that is what you are running with boost, I should be safe, but if your timing is much less than that I should start to worry and maybe reduce it a couple of degrees until I get on a dyno.
Oh yeah, on the dyno I advance timing until the torque levels/falls off right? Then I retard it a bit from there correct? Damon has told me multiple times but my dumb@ss keeps forgetting, ha.
Thanks for any info. you could give me here java.
You could always get this from Damon and repair your stock harness to save you the headache when you go through emissions!
Hey, what kind of timing are you running near redline? Of course you are boosted so it should be lower than mine, but I am at 27 degrees of advance at about 6000 rpm. Steadily increasing from 19 @ 3000. With it set that way, it feels as fast or faster than it did with the stock ecu. Of course I figure I should pick up a couple hp by removing the maf and putting 2.75" pipe in its place, but I wanted to see if that was insanely advanced or if you were running something similar. For example, if that is what you are running with boost, I should be safe, but if your timing is much less than that I should start to worry and maybe reduce it a couple of degrees until I get on a dyno.
Oh yeah, on the dyno I advance timing until the torque levels/falls off right? Then I retard it a bit from there correct? Damon has told me multiple times but my dumb@ss keeps forgetting, ha.
Thanks for any info. you could give me here java.
Senior Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,497
Likes: 0
Vehicle: 1998/Hyundai/Tiburon FX
^^^I second that! He has answers for ANY question!! It's uncanny what he knows. I wish I lived closer to you guys, you are lucky to be close enough to have him tune your tib!
I talked to him about it and he was a bit concerned but just gave me fair warning, I live a bit risky so I'll take the chance for the instant gratification, lol.
Although I am looking forward to tweaking the tune myself, it has been sooo fun (and sooooo frustrating at times) to do it on my own and see what all the changes do to affect how the car runs!
Good luck my friend.
I talked to him about it and he was a bit concerned but just gave me fair warning, I live a bit risky so I'll take the chance for the instant gratification, lol.
Although I am looking forward to tweaking the tune myself, it has been sooo fun (and sooooo frustrating at times) to do it on my own and see what all the changes do to affect how the car runs!
Good luck my friend.
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 98
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From: Denver, CO
Thanks, Tyler (tdonnell)! It was, and continues to be, a great experience working with you as well!
Javageek - If your harness is truly that hacked up, you can always get a new one at a stealership. Otherwise, if you have specifics on how it's hacked up, I can probably work with that.
Ignition timing -
Make no mistake about it, this is where the true tuning rubber meets the road. Fuel tuning is usually for drivability and safety margin, but to truly extract power AND mileage (that's right, both), you need a good spark map.
Another word of caution: If done wrong, this is EXACTLY where people blow their motors! So the stakes are high, but if you are willing to accept them, it can potentially be a very gratifying exercise.
As you start with insufficient timing (which is where you want to start, safe), you will notice you are quite a bit down on torque after the dyno run, but the torque curve will look absolutely beautiful with no bumps or spikes at all.
You first do a run or two to establish a baseline and warm up your oil. Then, you go to that portion of the spark map (0-ish psi in the case of an NA motor) and PULL a degree of timing (that's right, reduce it). Do another run. If you see the torque drop off, that's an indication you have insufficient timing. If you DON'T see the torque drop off, you have another issue going on and you SHOULD NOT increase timing. Examples of what can cause you to be down on power and prevent the motor from accepting timing are burrs in the combustion chamber causing hot spots and pre-ignition, incorrect AFRs (start at 13.0-13.5 for NA setup), poorly-set cam timing, or perhaps motor damage.
Okay, so you saw the drop in torque after pulling a degree. That's great! Advance the timing 2 degrees (one to make up for the pulled timing, and one more to test). Do a run. While doing the run, carefully listen for detonation and watch your air and coolant temps. Try to do runs with very similar air and coolant temps.
As you advance the timing, you will hit one of two limits: MBT or detonation.
MBT is Minimal Best Torque timing. As you advance the timing to this point, further advances don't actually yield increases in torque. You need to stop at MBT, because any more timing just wears on the motor without giving you any benefit. Many NA motors will hit MBT before seeing detonation.
If you start to hear detonation, STOP!! Close the throttle! Light detonation won't hurt a motor (little splats every now and then). Heavy detonation will kill a motor in SECONDS. If you start to hear the splats, remember what engine speed they were at and pull some timing right there, then redo the run. If the splats are across the board, then you have a motor that's "knock limited", meaning you won't see MBT before you hit knock.
Now you have a decision to make. How "safe" do you want the car? If you want it aggressive with a fair probability you will see detonation on the road, set the timing 1 degree shy of knocking. If you want a safer motor, set it 3-4 degrees shy. You will typically give up 10-15% of the motor's potential at 4 degrees.
How do you detect detonation? That's usually how good tuners make their money. wink1.gif The short answer is listen. I use something called "chassis ear" that I bolt to the block and put on head phones to listen to the motor. On a dyno, you can see light detonation in the torque curve if you know what you are looking for.
Cures for detonation:
-Richer AFR
-Higher Octane
-Lower compression (don't compromise the quench with thick head gaskets, lower compression using the pistons)
-Lower boost
-Lower Exhaust Gas Temperature (less restrictive exhaust can help this)
-Fix any machining issues you might have.
-Less aggressive cam timing setup
A few things to realize about spark timing:
-Optimal Spark timing varies with manifold pressure (more timing required with less manifold pressure)
-Optimal Spark timing varies with AFR (generally, richer AFR means the motor will accept more timing)
-Optimal Spark timing varies with engine speed (generally, 3-4 degrees between peak torque and redline works well)
-Optimal Spark timing varies with cam timing
-Optimal Spark timing varies with octane (to achieve the same output, you will often have to increase the timing on higher octane fuels)
-Optimal Spark timing varies with combustion chamber features (more bore = more spark timing, lower compression = more spark timing)
That's all I'm going to say on the spark timing aspect right now. If you want some more tuning pointers, I can be reached personally at damon.becker (at) comcast (dot) net.
Javageek - If your harness is truly that hacked up, you can always get a new one at a stealership. Otherwise, if you have specifics on how it's hacked up, I can probably work with that.
Ignition timing -
Make no mistake about it, this is where the true tuning rubber meets the road. Fuel tuning is usually for drivability and safety margin, but to truly extract power AND mileage (that's right, both), you need a good spark map.
Another word of caution: If done wrong, this is EXACTLY where people blow their motors! So the stakes are high, but if you are willing to accept them, it can potentially be a very gratifying exercise.
As you start with insufficient timing (which is where you want to start, safe), you will notice you are quite a bit down on torque after the dyno run, but the torque curve will look absolutely beautiful with no bumps or spikes at all.
You first do a run or two to establish a baseline and warm up your oil. Then, you go to that portion of the spark map (0-ish psi in the case of an NA motor) and PULL a degree of timing (that's right, reduce it). Do another run. If you see the torque drop off, that's an indication you have insufficient timing. If you DON'T see the torque drop off, you have another issue going on and you SHOULD NOT increase timing. Examples of what can cause you to be down on power and prevent the motor from accepting timing are burrs in the combustion chamber causing hot spots and pre-ignition, incorrect AFRs (start at 13.0-13.5 for NA setup), poorly-set cam timing, or perhaps motor damage.
Okay, so you saw the drop in torque after pulling a degree. That's great! Advance the timing 2 degrees (one to make up for the pulled timing, and one more to test). Do a run. While doing the run, carefully listen for detonation and watch your air and coolant temps. Try to do runs with very similar air and coolant temps.
As you advance the timing, you will hit one of two limits: MBT or detonation.
MBT is Minimal Best Torque timing. As you advance the timing to this point, further advances don't actually yield increases in torque. You need to stop at MBT, because any more timing just wears on the motor without giving you any benefit. Many NA motors will hit MBT before seeing detonation.
If you start to hear detonation, STOP!! Close the throttle! Light detonation won't hurt a motor (little splats every now and then). Heavy detonation will kill a motor in SECONDS. If you start to hear the splats, remember what engine speed they were at and pull some timing right there, then redo the run. If the splats are across the board, then you have a motor that's "knock limited", meaning you won't see MBT before you hit knock.
Now you have a decision to make. How "safe" do you want the car? If you want it aggressive with a fair probability you will see detonation on the road, set the timing 1 degree shy of knocking. If you want a safer motor, set it 3-4 degrees shy. You will typically give up 10-15% of the motor's potential at 4 degrees.
How do you detect detonation? That's usually how good tuners make their money. wink1.gif The short answer is listen. I use something called "chassis ear" that I bolt to the block and put on head phones to listen to the motor. On a dyno, you can see light detonation in the torque curve if you know what you are looking for.
Cures for detonation:
-Richer AFR
-Higher Octane
-Lower compression (don't compromise the quench with thick head gaskets, lower compression using the pistons)
-Lower boost
-Lower Exhaust Gas Temperature (less restrictive exhaust can help this)
-Fix any machining issues you might have.
-Less aggressive cam timing setup
A few things to realize about spark timing:
-Optimal Spark timing varies with manifold pressure (more timing required with less manifold pressure)
-Optimal Spark timing varies with AFR (generally, richer AFR means the motor will accept more timing)
-Optimal Spark timing varies with engine speed (generally, 3-4 degrees between peak torque and redline works well)
-Optimal Spark timing varies with cam timing
-Optimal Spark timing varies with octane (to achieve the same output, you will often have to increase the timing on higher octane fuels)
-Optimal Spark timing varies with combustion chamber features (more bore = more spark timing, lower compression = more spark timing)
That's all I'm going to say on the spark timing aspect right now. If you want some more tuning pointers, I can be reached personally at damon.becker (at) comcast (dot) net.
Senior Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,497
Likes: 0
Vehicle: 1998/Hyundai/Tiburon FX
^^^ This is what we are talking about people!
Just look at all that high quality information right there, lol.
You da man Damon!! fing02.gif
Thanks for the details on what I should be doing on the dyno, I didn't know 4 degrees would yeild a 10-15% increase in power!
I might even try running some 110 octane and setup my 2nd fuel/ignition maps for it, how much power could I gain from spark timing increases running 110?
Just look at all that high quality information right there, lol.
You da man Damon!! fing02.gif
Thanks for the details on what I should be doing on the dyno, I didn't know 4 degrees would yeild a 10-15% increase in power!
I might even try running some 110 octane and setup my 2nd fuel/ignition maps for it, how much power could I gain from spark timing increases running 110?
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
From: Denver, CO
Well, that's only an estimate. For less efficient combustion chamber designs like Chevy's 5.7 liter V8, you will have to pull more timing than that to make that big of a difference. These are only rules of thumb, but they should be reasonably close.
As for getting more power out of high octane, that depends on a few factors. If you had to go richer than about 12.5 to achieve knock-free, safe operation (like you often do with turbo motors), then the higher stability of race gas can be a great thing for you because you can now lean it out without fear of detonation. This can yield more power in some circumstances.
However, with NA motors, you are often already optimized if you tuned it correctly, and unless you have MONSTER VE and engine revs, race gas often won't yield that much more.
So how come it yields more out of a factory-tune car? Simple. The addition of race gas changes your fueling and spark needs. The mixture winds up leaning out a little. Since the factory ECU might be pulling timing because of knock, it now doesn't have to pull that timing, and you have better power output.
There are SO FREAKING MANY variables here that it's tough to give a one-size-fits-all answer, so I say give it a shot! Dump some high-octane gas in. Just beware: Lead kills O2 SENSORS AND CATS! I usually go with unleaded, high-octane gas because of this.
As for getting more power out of high octane, that depends on a few factors. If you had to go richer than about 12.5 to achieve knock-free, safe operation (like you often do with turbo motors), then the higher stability of race gas can be a great thing for you because you can now lean it out without fear of detonation. This can yield more power in some circumstances.
However, with NA motors, you are often already optimized if you tuned it correctly, and unless you have MONSTER VE and engine revs, race gas often won't yield that much more.
So how come it yields more out of a factory-tune car? Simple. The addition of race gas changes your fueling and spark needs. The mixture winds up leaning out a little. Since the factory ECU might be pulling timing because of knock, it now doesn't have to pull that timing, and you have better power output.
There are SO FREAKING MANY variables here that it's tough to give a one-size-fits-all answer, so I say give it a shot! Dump some high-octane gas in. Just beware: Lead kills O2 SENSORS AND CATS! I usually go with unleaded, high-octane gas because of this.