Run Your Car On Hho
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From: seacoast (New Hampshire)
Vehicle: 01/hyundai/tiburon
this is getting carried away, im not gonna post here again till i have somthing to show running with HHO! lol
posting about what could be is pointless...
posting about what could be is pointless...
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From: Knoxville,TN
Vehicle: 2001/Hyundai/Tiburon
Found this when I was looking through local craigslist:
http://www.tnhybrids.com/PublicSite/Default.aspx
http://www.tnhybrids.com/PublicSite/Default.aspx
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From: Boston
Vehicle: 2006 Pontiac GTO
Haha, I stumbled upon a slashdot entry, here is what the geeks have to say lol:
http://science.slashdot.org/science/.../1737231.shtml
http://science.slashdot.org/science/.../1737231.shtml
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From: Ashland, KY
Vehicle: 2001/Hyundai/Tiburon
I've been thinking about this and here's what I've come up with.
This isn't breaking the law of conservation of energy because:
1. Your simply using wasted energy to perform another task.
2. Much like turboing extra energy is available from your alternator.
3. this process should only use about as much energy as your head unit and people run much much larger stereos off the same alternator.
the alternator is what? 90 amps. this shouldn't take more than 20-30 amps, like adding a amplifier to your car. you might possibly have to turn it off at night to not dim the headlights. Think of it this way, does running your stereo hurt your gas mileage? no, or at least a negligible amount, because that alternator is always putting out 90 amps, if you use 20 or 50 the same power is being drawn from the engine.
Now running the car only on water... nope, impossible. You'd eventually have to stop to charge the battery so you might as well just go directly to an electric motor.
found a cool quote:
btw, for reference (I had to look the equation too!) Watts = Amps x Volts
This isn't breaking the law of conservation of energy because:
1. Your simply using wasted energy to perform another task.
2. Much like turboing extra energy is available from your alternator.
3. this process should only use about as much energy as your head unit and people run much much larger stereos off the same alternator.
the alternator is what? 90 amps. this shouldn't take more than 20-30 amps, like adding a amplifier to your car. you might possibly have to turn it off at night to not dim the headlights. Think of it this way, does running your stereo hurt your gas mileage? no, or at least a negligible amount, because that alternator is always putting out 90 amps, if you use 20 or 50 the same power is being drawn from the engine.
Now running the car only on water... nope, impossible. You'd eventually have to stop to charge the battery so you might as well just go directly to an electric motor.
found a cool quote:
QUOTE
Here's a little example: say your stereo runs at 40W continuous (a new Honda Civic stereo runs 160W max) and your alternator is 55% efficient (Wikipedia says 50-62%). You need to 40W/0.55 = 73W of power delivered to the alternator. Your engine is about 20% efficient (Wikipedia again) and a litre of gasoline has 34.8MJ of energy. 73W = 73 J/s ~ 260000 J/h, so you need (260000J/h)/((34.8MJ/l)*0.2) = 0.038 litres of gasoline per hour to power your stereo. So if you are cruising down the highway at 100km/h in your Civic (which burns about 7l/100km on the highway), your stereo will take about 0.038l/7l = 0.5% of that.
Not much, but once you add all the electrical devices together, it probably adds up to a few percent.
Not much, but once you add all the electrical devices together, it probably adds up to a few percent.
btw, for reference (I had to look the equation too!) Watts = Amps x Volts
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From: Boston
Vehicle: 2006 Pontiac GTO
You admit that it is impossible to run your car only on water. Yes, it is, because you would be breaking the law of energy conservation. But somehow you are denying that the water->hho->water cycle is not breaking the law??
> if you use 20 or 50 the same power is being drawn from the engine.
If you use 50 amps instead of 20, the power drawn from the engine is 2.5 times greater. The current you draw from an electrical generator is proportional to the torque needed to keep it spinning. That is a fact dictated from electromagnetic physics laws, but it is also obvious from an energy conservation standpoint - the energy that goes out is proportional with (and smaller than) the energy you put in.
In any case, if you are only drawing a small current, you are only going to generate a small amount of HHO, not enough to run your car. Yes, perhaps injecting it with the gasoline, you'd get better mileage. How? It might make the burning more efficient or allow leaner mixtures or whatever, so it would help you get more energy out of the GASOLINE - not from the water->hho->water cycle itself.
You mention wasted energy? What "wasted" energy are you talking about? Like I said, don't imagine that the engine spins the alternator as hard whether it's making 90 amps or 10 amps, just listen to your engine when you roll down both windows, you will definitely hear a small change in the sound.
> if you use 20 or 50 the same power is being drawn from the engine.
If you use 50 amps instead of 20, the power drawn from the engine is 2.5 times greater. The current you draw from an electrical generator is proportional to the torque needed to keep it spinning. That is a fact dictated from electromagnetic physics laws, but it is also obvious from an energy conservation standpoint - the energy that goes out is proportional with (and smaller than) the energy you put in.
In any case, if you are only drawing a small current, you are only going to generate a small amount of HHO, not enough to run your car. Yes, perhaps injecting it with the gasoline, you'd get better mileage. How? It might make the burning more efficient or allow leaner mixtures or whatever, so it would help you get more energy out of the GASOLINE - not from the water->hho->water cycle itself.
You mention wasted energy? What "wasted" energy are you talking about? Like I said, don't imagine that the engine spins the alternator as hard whether it's making 90 amps or 10 amps, just listen to your engine when you roll down both windows, you will definitely hear a small change in the sound.
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Radu, for the most part you are right here. With the "kit" that can be put together with the manual I bought The HHO produced is a small amount and will only supplement the gas for a small to moderate improvement in mileage. It is generally in the realm of 12%-40% improvement. For how cost effective the materials are, however, it is worth it. The simple kit can be put together from about $60 to as little as about $20 in mass production. This is not a complex set-up and it does not produce large amounts of HHO.
The real benefit would be to develop a more complex unit that produces much larger amounts of HHO that can dramatically increase mileage, perhaps by 100% or more. I'll be buying a 5HP engine to experiment with on more complex kits that use pulse technology and a catalyst to improve electrolysis. This is a venture that will take a few years I'm sure. Supposedly, some people have managed to do a complete water to HHO conversion, but the proof does seem to be lacking, with the exception of claims and video feed, which could be exaggerated.
The real benefit would be to develop a more complex unit that produces much larger amounts of HHO that can dramatically increase mileage, perhaps by 100% or more. I'll be buying a 5HP engine to experiment with on more complex kits that use pulse technology and a catalyst to improve electrolysis. This is a venture that will take a few years I'm sure. Supposedly, some people have managed to do a complete water to HHO conversion, but the proof does seem to be lacking, with the exception of claims and video feed, which could be exaggerated.
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From: Ashland, KY
Vehicle: 2001/Hyundai/Tiburon
QUOTE (radu_rd2 @ Jun 15 2008, 12:12 AM)
> if you use 20 or 50 the same power is being drawn from the engine.
If you use 50 amps instead of 20, the power drawn from the engine is 2.5 times greater. The current you draw from an electrical generator is proportional to the torque needed to keep it spinning. That is a fact dictated from electromagnetic physics laws, but it is also obvious from an energy conservation standpoint - the energy that goes out is proportional with (and smaller than) the energy you put in.
If you use 50 amps instead of 20, the power drawn from the engine is 2.5 times greater. The current you draw from an electrical generator is proportional to the torque needed to keep it spinning. That is a fact dictated from electromagnetic physics laws, but it is also obvious from an energy conservation standpoint - the energy that goes out is proportional with (and smaller than) the energy you put in.
please read full sentence
QUOTE (radu_rd2 @ Jun 15 2008, 12:12 AM)
In any case, if you are only drawing a small current, you are only going to generate a small amount of HHO, not enough to run your car. Yes, perhaps injecting it with the gasoline, you'd get better mileage. How? It might make the burning more efficient or allow leaner mixtures or whatever, so it would help you get more energy out of the GASOLINE - not from the water->hho->water cycle itself.
this is what I'm saying
QUOTE (radu_rd2 @ Jun 15 2008, 12:12 AM)
You mention wasted energy? What "wasted" energy are you talking about? Like I said, don't imagine that the engine spins the alternator as hard whether it's making 90 amps or 10 amps, just listen to your engine when you roll down both windows, you will definitely hear a small change in the sound.
yes waste, you aren't looking at the full picture. That alt doesn't magically put 90 amps or 50 amps. It's putting out all the power it can all the time (depends on engine rpms). The Extra - AKA Wasted energy is going into thermal energy over in the regulator, if that wasn't there you'd be over charging your battery all the time. Thats why a wall outlet ac/dc convector gets hot. Ever plugged one in with nothing hooked up? It gets pretty warm. Again conservation of energy, those electrons gotta go somewheres!
here's a good brief read over on crutchfield:http://www.crutchfield.com/S-KqpJCYP...ech/kb233.html
QUOTE
Once you have the current converted over to DC, the last component required is a voltage regulator to determine how much energy is needed to be output from the diode bridge. (The diode bridge is the combination of all six rectification diodes, also referred to as a rectifier bridge). The sensor for the regulator is usually connected to the positive post of the battery and when it senses a low voltage condition, allows more energy to flow in the rotor coil, creating more energy in the stator coils. It does this through a series of points, raising the points off of the contacts to allow less current to flow, or dropping points onto the contacts to increase current flow.
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From: Boston
Vehicle: 2006 Pontiac GTO
Got it on your first two points.
That is just not true!! The alternator is putting out a certain voltage, yes, but the mechanical power it consumes is proportional to the current you draw from it.
The power regulator controls how much current is drawn from the amp. The power regulator doesn't waste tens of amps of current through heat, that is insane. Something like 50 amps at 12V is 600W, that would be a LOT of heat!
What is basically happening is that when there is a current going through the alternator, it is creating a magnetic force that opposes the motion. So the more current drawn, the harder the engine has to work to keep it spinning. Like I said, listen very carefully to the engine while you roll down the windows and you might hear for yourself (depends on how much of the vibrations you can feel).
It only gets warm because it's not 100% efficient. Even when you are not drawing any current from it, it still draws a LITTLE current from the outlet, and it gets a little warm (mainly because of the eddy currents forming in the metal core plates). It does NOT draw as much current from the outlet as it draws when you actually connect it to something, not even close, it's basically just a trace amount. It cumulates over time as there is no cooling, so the thing eventually can get hot.
That's a good writeup, but it doesn't support your theory in any way. Actually, to quote it:
"The sensor for the regulator is usually connected to the positive post of the battery and when it senses a low voltage condition, allows more energy to flow in the rotor coil, creating more energy in the stator coils". So when the regulator decides, more current flows through the alternator.
I know these electric/magnetic conversion devices are not very intuitive. I get where the confusion comes from (e.g. you are always spinning the alternator, so doesn't it always produce the same power?) but it just doesn't work like that. I used to be very confused as to how these devices work until I learned the physics behind it. It's not very simple and it's counterintuitive at times, but what you can always remember is that energy conservation always works with these devices, what you get out is always roughly proportional with what you put in, be it electric motors, generators, or transformers.
If you are really interested in the topic, I can point you to some online electricity-magnetism lectures from a highly respected professor at MIT which are nothing short of AWESOME; if you have the time to go through them, you will not regret it, I guarantee it.
QUOTE (Supercow @ Jun 14 2008, 11:53 PM)
yes waste, you aren't looking at the full picture. That alt doesn't magically put 90 amps or 50 amps. It's putting out all the power it can all the time (depends on engine rpms). The Extra - AKA Wasted energy is going into thermal energy over in the regulator, if that wasn't there you'd be over charging your battery all the time.
That is just not true!! The alternator is putting out a certain voltage, yes, but the mechanical power it consumes is proportional to the current you draw from it.
The power regulator controls how much current is drawn from the amp. The power regulator doesn't waste tens of amps of current through heat, that is insane. Something like 50 amps at 12V is 600W, that would be a LOT of heat!
What is basically happening is that when there is a current going through the alternator, it is creating a magnetic force that opposes the motion. So the more current drawn, the harder the engine has to work to keep it spinning. Like I said, listen very carefully to the engine while you roll down the windows and you might hear for yourself (depends on how much of the vibrations you can feel).
QUOTE (Supercow @ Jun 14 2008, 11:53 PM)
Thats why a wall outlet ac/dc convector gets hot. Ever plugged one in with nothing hooked up? It gets pretty warm. Again conservation of energy, those electrons gotta go somewheres!
It only gets warm because it's not 100% efficient. Even when you are not drawing any current from it, it still draws a LITTLE current from the outlet, and it gets a little warm (mainly because of the eddy currents forming in the metal core plates). It does NOT draw as much current from the outlet as it draws when you actually connect it to something, not even close, it's basically just a trace amount. It cumulates over time as there is no cooling, so the thing eventually can get hot.
QUOTE (Supercow @ Jun 14 2008, 11:53 PM)
here's a good brief read over on crutchfield:http://www.crutchfield.com/S-KqpJCYPYOMP/tech/kb233.html
That's a good writeup, but it doesn't support your theory in any way. Actually, to quote it:
"The sensor for the regulator is usually connected to the positive post of the battery and when it senses a low voltage condition, allows more energy to flow in the rotor coil, creating more energy in the stator coils". So when the regulator decides, more current flows through the alternator.
I know these electric/magnetic conversion devices are not very intuitive. I get where the confusion comes from (e.g. you are always spinning the alternator, so doesn't it always produce the same power?) but it just doesn't work like that. I used to be very confused as to how these devices work until I learned the physics behind it. It's not very simple and it's counterintuitive at times, but what you can always remember is that energy conservation always works with these devices, what you get out is always roughly proportional with what you put in, be it electric motors, generators, or transformers.
If you are really interested in the topic, I can point you to some online electricity-magnetism lectures from a highly respected professor at MIT which are nothing short of AWESOME; if you have the time to go through them, you will not regret it, I guarantee it.
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After reading this thread a few weeks ago I've been researching this a bunch, and installed a very basic system in my truck yesterday. It cost me about $20 and a weekend to build.
I have an '04 Ford Explorer Eddie Bauer w/ a 4.6L V8. The best mileage I have gotten from it since I purchased it has been 14.6MPG in the city, and around 19MPG on the highway. This is all according to the onboard message center which simply compares the amount of fuel being injected VS the miles travelled. After driving with the generator attached for about 20 minutes, my mileage increased to 16.0 MPG. I did not reset the counter after the install, so the mileage just slowly crept up, and was still increasing.
Anyways, I just tried it to see if the unit actually worked. I can't leave it installed as there is no bubbler/flashback arrestor, and the system is very crude and innefficient, and would overheat if I left it on for any extended period of time. This was simply a test to see if this system can save me money. I don't care about inefficiencies or laws, I only care about money here. My system produces very little gas compared to what it seen on youtube. I only wanted to see whether I should pursue this more, which I will be doing.
I have an '04 Ford Explorer Eddie Bauer w/ a 4.6L V8. The best mileage I have gotten from it since I purchased it has been 14.6MPG in the city, and around 19MPG on the highway. This is all according to the onboard message center which simply compares the amount of fuel being injected VS the miles travelled. After driving with the generator attached for about 20 minutes, my mileage increased to 16.0 MPG. I did not reset the counter after the install, so the mileage just slowly crept up, and was still increasing.
Anyways, I just tried it to see if the unit actually worked. I can't leave it installed as there is no bubbler/flashback arrestor, and the system is very crude and innefficient, and would overheat if I left it on for any extended period of time. This was simply a test to see if this system can save me money. I don't care about inefficiencies or laws, I only care about money here. My system produces very little gas compared to what it seen on youtube. I only wanted to see whether I should pursue this more, which I will be doing.
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From: Ashland, KY
Vehicle: 2001/Hyundai/Tiburon
radu, if you are correct then please explain why you can increase power and fuel mileage by changing from an belt driven to an electrical fan? By going through a 60% efficient alternator you should be losing power and gas mileage.
Maybe I was wrong in saying that isn't producing 100% all the time but it's surely is producing more than needed.
edit: conservation of energy applies but when your using up something it's a bit more complicated, its not like i'm suggesting having your motor idle to power an electric motor to power the car.
Maybe I was wrong in saying that isn't producing 100% all the time but it's surely is producing more than needed.
edit: conservation of energy applies but when your using up something it's a bit more complicated, its not like i'm suggesting having your motor idle to power an electric motor to power the car.