^^^Bravo...just because something CAN be a weapon doesn't make it one...a car can be a weapon...

 

to reply to a few points made by redz in his last post..


rainbow paediatrics

there you go more reds under your bed.

i have not said anything anti american i love america, ive visited twice, my wife has visited five times and my family own a home over there. in fact a lot of the sources i quote (to dismiss your arguments) are americans. you seem to think you represent the views of the entire american population. im afraid you do not!, and to think that you do makes you a little egotistical.

i completely agree, they did thier best, they were told to do what they did, they were not given all the facts. they should be venerated and honoured for the service they did to thier country,

but these were the same vets that had to battle through the courts to get your government to admit that agent orange had ruined thier health. a fact the us government refused to accept for over ten years. these were the same veterans that died waiting for the goverment to admit they had exposed them to toxic chemicals. the veterans of the conflict were denied justice for over ten years by the us government.

shame on the government of the united states.



its quite obvious you dont care what the rest of the world thinks.


i said....

obviously another anti- american site eh redz

you replied

[/QUOTE]Oh no, that's just an anti US GOvernment site, obviously. Did you even look around the site? LMAO Nice try though.[QUOTE]

you claimed i was anti american, now you claim i am anti us government. you do realise these things are different dont you?. do you think that all americans voted for your present government?. i mean more people voted for americas pop idol than voted for george bush. you can be an american redz and not support the government, its called freedom and democracy.

 

This thread can turn out to just be an ongoing battle for all eternity because there are views from both sides that are supported...what exactly are you trying to prove at this point other than the other one being wrong? Is it that important to be able to label America as having used chemical WARFARE...come on...yes, we used Agent Orange in Vietnam, but like REDZ stated earlier, judging by different definitions of the word, napalm would be considered chemical warfare. What does this prove? That you can argue about this forever and no one will turn up as right. So what say we all quit this silly bickering and down a brew, huh?

 

Okay,

I've tried to stay out of this for as long as possible, and I do not intend to get to deep into it.

Like Redz, I am a patriot of the US. I have been a Special Operations soldier for 6 years and have had the honor of serving in Bosnia once, Kosovo once, Afghanistan three times, and Iraq four.

My father was also in the armed forces, more specifically a volunteer during the Vietnam Conflict and was a gunner on the glorious AC-47 "Puffs". He was also a major part of Agent Orange operations as a support gunner and a kicker from caribous. He committed to the Vietnam Conflict for three combat tours. And when I discussed this issue with him, it was simple. Agent Orange was never INTENDED to be used as a chemical weapon. And as stated by a few above this post, thats what it comes down to.

Its Task, and Purpose (recognize that statement Redz? Starting to look like an OPORD) was for the veggies to die.

So, respectfully, lets understand what its task, purpose, and intent was. You both have facts from sources. And no matter what, no matter what the fact is, it can always be debated, unless its pretty much a molecular breakdown, everything about that fact, every word of the definition can be argued.

So where do we go from here? I recommend that all find a new topic to argue about like that 1500hp civic in import racer. And that we agree to disagree no matter what facts are brought to light. And if not, quit posting.

This site is bigger than a few people's pride or ego, and i'm included in this.

The Vietnam Conflict is over, the aftermath is just that, aftermath, meaning, done, complete. Pride the people that served, and aid the people that need it, on all sides, but no matter what how much everyone argues, we will not change what is written in history. History, already done, over, completed, much like this topic, should be locked and made into history.

Very Respectfully,
Richard Brake

 

all this is intended to prove one thing......

that people have different opinions on this controversial subject.

and that does not make them wrong

a point that (unfortunately) redz will not concede.

its just turned into a bit of a battle of whos got the best search engine laugh.gif

so untill this topic is locked, or we can come to some agreement, bring it on!.

(i did start all this trying not to get drawn into an argument )



edited re mr brakes post.

i posted this before mr brakes excellent post. i think you summed it up to be honest so fair play. i wont post on this subject again.

redz, feel free to pm me if you want to continue.

 

First off, where did you find this website? I've never seen it, and it's got about the worst setup for looking up anything ever.

Anyways, as for the definition, looks just like the one I posted earlier. Look at the definition you posted above. TO CAUSE DEATH OR SEVERE HARM. Vindicated. Agent Orange was not used to People or Animals. Only plants. So the definition you posted is nill. Again, by that definition, any military in the world is guilty of it then, since we all use riot gas and smoke munitions, not to mention HP/Incindenary devices.

Using that same website that you just posted though.

OWNED.

OWNED again.

Nice obscure site man, I prefer Dictionary.com and M-W.com , as they are the biggest and most recognized dictionary sites in the world.

Heh, wrong again ya limey.

No, I'm not owned. Well, on Halo 2 now and then. My point of view is balanced, and proven. I'm not a moron, I have an IQ of 121 thank you very much, and no, you proved no one wrong.

Not at all, but the definitions were correct.

1. It took me 5 minutes to find out what a .ch website is. It's Swiss BTW. Nice job digging for that one. LMAO Also, pay attention to the first line. "Can Be Regarded". Seems you "Regard" them in that manner.

2. The definition there is also correct for herbacides. They are used against PLANTS. Indirect Chemical Warfare? I don't agree, but read #3.

3. Quoted from the same page...

They aren't sure who wrote that article.

4. I thought it was interesting you left this out.

a - That definition of Chemical Warfare would apply to almost anything.
b - Notice that 1.4, Defoliants and Herbicides are NOT (Along with Napalm), grouped with Chemical Weapons.

Almost man. Can be "Regarded". I don't regard them in that manner.

No facts again man, just theory and definitions.

That webpage doesn't have that definition. I copied and pasted.

I did look thru that site a bit and found this though.

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/agentlistchem.asp

Take a look at that listing. No Herbicides or Agent Orange on that list.

Must suck getting owned by your own "sources".

Also note that Nicotine is on that listing.

I see your quote, but it's not on that page. Interesting definition however. I bet I can find a website calling Hitler a Hero and Saddam Hussien a Nobel Peace Prize winner.

rolleyes.gif

You actually owned yourself on that one.

LOL Whatever helps you sleep better at night you crazy brit.

I went and read the whole site. Interesting and disturbing at the same time. I'm suprised you picked the story you did on that page, the one above it was much more to your corner of the world. Anyways, it's funny that they describe Riot Gas as "Deadly poison" and such. I've been directly exposed, about 6 times unvoluntarily, and approximately 168 times VOLUNTARILY to Riot Gas. I love the stuff. Clears out your sinus's very well. You can breath very well for about a week afterwards. Anyways...

For your current rabble quote, I see the following.

1. Written during Vietnam, might just POSSIBLY have some anti war sentiment to it, I'm not quite sure. LMAO

2. You forgot this from the above paragraph on that page.

French anyone?

3. Rice crops in Asian countries. Ever been to one? They happen to be called paddies, and they are right on the edges of heavily forrested areas. As I did state before though, no one is perfect and misdrops do happen, even today in the age of GPS guided munitions. Spraying these crops on purpose was never a policy.

Cleverer? LMAO 1965, university scientists... Wonder if maybe they wanted some of the students back because of low enrollment.

I just read the whole thing. Very heavily Anti American. I think a few things are very interesting in it.

1. "A reporter for the St Louis Dispatch". What reporter? What mission? What poison? The US never even had any chemical weapons in the Vietnam theater.

2. Flatly denied that the Herbicide was a chemical weapon. He was correct.

3. Over 5000 American Scientists. Where's the listing of them? What Biological weapons were used in Vietnam? I'll tell you which ones. NONE! We've never used any Biological Warfare Agents.

4. Wow, they signed a petition. I'm so happy for them. If someone passed me a petition against using Chemical Weapons and Biological warfare agents, I'd sign it too. WTF is your point??? LOL

I'm agreeing with them. I'm against anyone using any of these agents at all. Ever.

Well, I agreed with them, because they are correct. Chemical and Biological weapons are nasty shit. I'd rather be nuked, you have a better survival rate if you aren't in the direct blast area.

1. Yay, you found one website that calls it a Chemical Weapon. I've found dozens of websites that directly say it's an Herbacide and not a chemical weapon.

2. The quote you have above is wrong anyways, it was used until 1971.

3. On the same page...

There is it's use. Definately not as a weapon. Maybe they are confused eh? Most of that site is perty cool though, definately for patriots and veterans. I'll bookmark it.

You know, I've never heard of that site. Any of the military folks here or veterans can state if they have or not too. I don't know where you get this Communist thing, I said it once

Where? I can start a website named "The internet's guide to England", but that doesn't mean it's worth a damn does it? I don't see how you even came close to owning anything in this entire post, except for yourself.


Yup. I tried that as the short route about 2 pages ago.

My farts are chemicals, and some belive they are lethal, does that make my anus a chemical weapons factory? Am I to be invaded by some British commando squad? Make sure it's some fine ass chick with the straightest teeth ever on a Brit.

Oh, and that she shaves.

Ahh, spelling owned you. You put "rainbow paediatrics".

Looking at that site, it's all correct.

It says clearly that it's an Herbicide. It also says that "Some people regard herbicides as chemical weapons if used for hostile purposes". I also agree with that. Agent Orange was not used in a overtly or covertly hostile manner. At all. It was not used in a hostile manner. Thanks again for helping prove fact with your link.

It also says "there is no universal agreement about this". Obviously. This thread is proof of that.

Yeah, you did. One thing. You said we used Chemical Weapons on Civilians. You were wrong. Proven over 2 dozen times now. I'm a SCHOOL Trained Nuculear/Biological/Chemical Weapons Defence specialist, I KNOW this stuff with 11 years of experience and interest. You attacked with a bogus claim. You got owned harder than a Maytag washer on the subject.


Now you are making stuff up. I never said that or insinuated that. You just happened to pick something that I am a subject matter expert on and a country I'm VERY passionate about defending, to the tooth and NAIL. There are idiots on every corner, and everyone has an opinion on everything. I didn't state an opinion, I stated fact. And disproved your "facts".

I'm thinking YOU think you talk for the rest of the world my man. That makes you even MORE so.

Sure they were. They were given the facts known at the time. If we knew Pearl Harbor, 100% for sure was going to happen, would we have had all those ships at dock? No. If we knew 9/11 had a chance of happening, would we have been as careless as we were then? Hell no. Hindsight, as they say, is 20/20. That means that when you have ALL THE FACTS, plain and in sight, from ALL the sources, all at once, years later, it all is clear as day. Why didn't they see that? Why didn't we stop that?

That's a fact of the legal system. It sucks, but hey, it's life.

The government at THAT time you mean. Veterans are a priority in our country now, Gulf War Syndrome is allready being treated very well and folks are being compensated. Don't forget that Vietnam wasn't exactly POPULAR.

Oh, usually I don't. Popular Media sensationalizes everything we hear and see. I get told the S. Koreans hate us being in Korea all the time by CNN. I lived in Korea 2 times. You know what? 90% of the people there love us and don't want us to leave. Great things happen every day over there, but you never hear of it. Better yet, I DO care what the rest of the world thinks, I just know I won't hear of it on the news or on most of the net.

Oh no, that's just an anti US GOvernment site, obviously. Did you even look around the site? LMAO Nice try though.Ehhh, nope. I never said YOU were, I said that SITE is. It is. You read too much into stuff and not what is THERE.

Yes, they are spelled differently and have different words.

Nope.

Yup. You can set up a auto dialer for American Idol, but you can only vote once (Usually) in person for elections. Oh, you DO know that right? My wife works for a telephone company, she got a call the other day for someone wanting credit for $850 in charges to one #. Guess what they were? American Idol, all to one # to vote for one person.

That's right, and this current election showed that it still works.

Partially right. OPINIONS can't be wrong. They are OPINIONS.

FACT makes things right or wrong. Clean water is clear. FACT. I don't like the way that water tastes. Opinion. Agent Orange is a Herbicide = FACT. Agent Orange is a Chemical Weapon = OPINION.

Shiet biotch, everyone knows Google is the best.

This is getting locked. Now. It's just got out of hand and the quotes aren't working right.

Everyone can agree or disagree on what they want to. But fact is fact. Slant them how you want, try to prove whatever, however, but you can't get away from fact.

Doesn't CSI teach you anything?