Wet Vs. Dry (Direct Port)
07-10-2002, 07:36 AM
#11
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Ok. 99.8% or the HP rating you will get. You yourself know we all use a standard percentage on what drive train losses will be right? say like 15% from flywheel. Hyundai say 140HP we say 120 WHP. NX does the same thing. uses a general percentage of what drive train losses should be. therefore it is 99.8% of HP rating. so the say 50HP you will dyno close to that 50 HP on any vehicle. Some vehicles will dyno a little more than 50HP maybe 55HP and some will dyno a little less. maybe 48HP. to acomplish this they use bigger jets than a 50 jet setup. well kind anyway. the jet will be more like a 45 jet because there willbe some increase in power due to the extra fuel in the intake. The original poiint was that you guys were saying that there was no kits out there that have less than 150-200 shot direct port because every direct port has to use a 25 nitrous jet. meaning 25 X 4 = 100. dont get 50 Shot and 50HP mixed up. NX is totally different in the way then do their nitrous kits. The jets themselves are rated for crank HP but the system is designed for a *universal* drive train loss to give a relatively close HP gain at the wheels.
07-10-2002, 07:58 AM
#12
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QUOTE
SCCA 01 Elantra:
Some vehicles will dyno a little more than 50HP maybe 55HP and some will dyno a little less. maybe 48HP. to acomplish this they use bigger jets than a 50 jet setup. well kind anyway. the jet will be more like a 45 jet because there willbe some increase in power due to the extra fuel in the intake.
Yay,... your learningSome vehicles will dyno a little more than 50HP maybe 55HP and some will dyno a little less. maybe 48HP. to acomplish this they use bigger jets than a 50 jet setup. well kind anyway. the jet will be more like a 45 jet because there willbe some increase in power due to the extra fuel in the intake.
your on the right track buddy,... not there but your on your way
BTW,...you just admitted the 99.8% is wrong
[b]
QUOTE
The jets themselves are rated for crank HP but the system is designed for a *universal* drive train loss to give a relatively close HP gain at the wheels.
but not 99.8% exact,... some vehicles may have as low as a 10% power train loss,... others 25%that already screwed up your *universal power train loss*
THANK YOU
COME AGAIN
Different automobiles have different power train losses
They are basically taking the mean,... which if you have taken a statistics class, its not nearly close to 99.8
07-10-2002, 08:11 AM
#13
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The problem here is that, by your own admittance, NX uses a set of *18* nozzles to run a 50HP setup. That puts you at a 72-shot, which *might* end up making somewhere around 50 horsepower.
Guess what? it's essentially a 75 shot you just put on there. Every (semi-knowledgeable) car enthusiast on the planet knows that not ALL the power at your crank goes through to the wheels. NOS/Holley and the others understand this, that's why they rate it all at the crank.
The problem here is your little definitions...
A direct-port 75 *shot* is the same (essentially) as your litte 50 *NX HP* system. The difference is? NObody else on the planet bothers with such tiny-ass little nozzles.
Really, what is the point of going full direct port on a setup that's gonna yeild such tiny-ass little results? Is the manufacturing cost of making multiple runs of these itty bitty nozzles raally worth it????
The cost alone just for the customer is just dumb... Why go 4 x 18hp nozzles and all this extra plumbing, when you could just go single fogger wet for about 1/2 price?
Here, let me just finish this. NX's *HP* methodology is dumb; everyone else has it right. Just like a *rule of thumb* doesn't work for guesstimating your crank horsepower, it also doesn't work for sales pitching NAAWWWZZZ to teenagers.
That is all.
[edit] Actually, that isn't all yet... Let me just say, as a nitrous-purchasing consumer, that when I plunked down my money for a 150 shot, I expected a TRUE 150 shot. I'd be super pissed if my *NX 185 shot* system started eating plugs after I didn't back enough timing out in the Haltech because I was expecting 35 horsepower less...
Guess what? it's essentially a 75 shot you just put on there. Every (semi-knowledgeable) car enthusiast on the planet knows that not ALL the power at your crank goes through to the wheels. NOS/Holley and the others understand this, that's why they rate it all at the crank.
The problem here is your little definitions...
A direct-port 75 *shot* is the same (essentially) as your litte 50 *NX HP* system. The difference is? NObody else on the planet bothers with such tiny-ass little nozzles.
Really, what is the point of going full direct port on a setup that's gonna yeild such tiny-ass little results? Is the manufacturing cost of making multiple runs of these itty bitty nozzles raally worth it????
The cost alone just for the customer is just dumb... Why go 4 x 18hp nozzles and all this extra plumbing, when you could just go single fogger wet for about 1/2 price?
Here, let me just finish this. NX's *HP* methodology is dumb; everyone else has it right. Just like a *rule of thumb* doesn't work for guesstimating your crank horsepower, it also doesn't work for sales pitching NAAWWWZZZ to teenagers.
That is all.
[edit] Actually, that isn't all yet... Let me just say, as a nitrous-purchasing consumer, that when I plunked down my money for a 150 shot, I expected a TRUE 150 shot. I'd be super pissed if my *NX 185 shot* system started eating plugs after I didn't back enough timing out in the Haltech because I was expecting 35 horsepower less...
07-10-2002, 08:38 AM
#14
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No timing changes neccesary for any NX kits. This is due to the exceptional atomization of the fuel through the nozzle. Also minimizes the chance of IM backfires. Also, I would not do a 50HP direct port anyway. I would use the 200HP direct port setup. which is esetially the 50 HP jettings of the 50HP fogger system. If I got to upgrade the internals anyway why not up the Nitrous. Also if you knew that NX uses WHP rating you would know what it would be giving the crank wouldn't you?
07-10-2002, 10:11 AM
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Also if you knew that NX uses WHP rating you would know what it would be giving the crank wouldn't you?
And here is where you're obviously missing it. The correct answer is NO, you do NOT know how much it's putting to the crank. If I dyno my car right now and it makes 160 wheel horsepower, what am I making at the crank?Care to guess?
Oh wait, I forgot to mention that the car I just dynoed was NOT my Tiburon. Ok, so guess again... Oops, that car wasn't a manual tranny... Oh yeah, forgot to mention that car has a welded diff too.
Do you see where this is going? You don't have the first damned clue what it's making at the crank... Nobody does. That's why rating a nitrous system for *wheel horsepower* is 100% pure bona-fide Grade A spam.
You can save all that rhetoric for the atomized this and superfied that. You WILL have to pull some timing if you spray a 150 shot. Especially if you are using a standalone system that can use every last inkling of your engine's abilities N/A...
07-10-2002, 11:36 AM
#16
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Sure you would. You would know which jets NX uses to make the 75HP system. If you know jet sizes are for crank HP then you know what you are giving extra to the crank when on spray. And have you ever wondered why NX offers a Money back option if you don't like their systems? Because very few wind up back at NX. NOS, ZEX, TNT etc..... will not allow you to install their systems and return if you don't like it. There is someone on this board who will be getting an NX kit here real soon and will be doing before and after dynos of all ratings 35, 50 and 75HP ratings and we will see how much these so called morons that put together this kit. And we will se how close these ratings come to actual values. Like I said 149 HP from a 150HP system I'd say they know what they are doing. How many people have you seen blow and intake manifold off their block using a NOS wet system? How many using an NX system? very few. And its usually because they put the nozzle too close to the TB. I challenge anyone here when I add my kit to my car with a 50HP ZEX kit to a run and see who comes out on top. I will jet my system for a 50HP rating. I guarantee my 50HP NX kit will put out more than your 50 shot ZEX kit. How many engines has Jaws gone through already because of bad timing or something else? Has he tried the NX kits yet. I don't think so.
07-10-2002, 12:13 PM
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You're making empty arguments...
*Ohh, my 50HP NX system will dyno higher than a 50-shot whatever-else*... Of course it will, because it's running a SEVENTY FIVE SHOT, not a 50 shot. Duh, takes a real intelligent person to figure that out.
*Oh, how many blown up manifolds do you see with company XYZ???*... Sure, but how many GOOD WORKING systems are there at that same time? It's law of averages: NOS has an installed base of probably 50 million units, so you complain when 500 blow up? But then NX has an installed base of maybe 1 million units, so you DON'T complain when 10 blow up? Same percentage buddy...
(numbers are examples, but you get the idea)
I'm tired of having a battle of wits with someone as ill-prepared as yourself. It's very obvious that your logical thinking skills are impaired by your brand loyalty, so I'll leave you two alone.
NX is no better (or worse) than anyone else out there. I have zero argument with the hardware and implementation.
The problem and the stupidity comes from the idiot/misinformation-spewing marketing department.
*Ohh, my 50HP NX system will dyno higher than a 50-shot whatever-else*... Of course it will, because it's running a SEVENTY FIVE SHOT, not a 50 shot. Duh, takes a real intelligent person to figure that out.
*Oh, how many blown up manifolds do you see with company XYZ???*... Sure, but how many GOOD WORKING systems are there at that same time? It's law of averages: NOS has an installed base of probably 50 million units, so you complain when 500 blow up? But then NX has an installed base of maybe 1 million units, so you DON'T complain when 10 blow up? Same percentage buddy...
(numbers are examples, but you get the idea)
I'm tired of having a battle of wits with someone as ill-prepared as yourself. It's very obvious that your logical thinking skills are impaired by your brand loyalty, so I'll leave you two alone.
NX is no better (or worse) than anyone else out there. I have zero argument with the hardware and implementation.
The problem and the stupidity comes from the idiot/misinformation-spewing marketing department.
07-10-2002, 02:32 PM
#18
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See red you are getting the point now. Like a 75HP NX kit is essetially like running a 100 shot dry only safer to the point you cant run a 100 shot dry on a stock engine without a conrtroller or haviong the internals upgraded. But the 75HP NX kit can be run on a stock engine without having to mess with timing.
07-10-2002, 03:43 PM
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Vehicle: 2008 Toyota Prius 2006 Suzuki SV650S
Okay, let's just do some simple math.
The stock injectors are good for about 180 Crank HP at stock fuel pressure. The stock Fuel pump is good for about 200 Crank HP worth of fuel at stock fuel pressure.
We've already established that the NX *50* kit is really a 75 (72) shot, and that the NX *75* is really a *100* shot.
We know the stock injectors can't hack 240 Crank HP (140 stock 100 nitrous). We know the stock fuel pump can't hack 240 Crank HP (140 stock+100 nitrous). If the NX kit raises the fuel pressure, you are loosing flow capability from the stock pump by raising the pressure, and you're also lowering the injector max duty cycle before injector lockup by raising the fuel pressure. So in effect, You've LOWERED the possible performance of the kit BELOW 200 Crank HP. Yet SCCA Elantra01 seems to think the NX kit is going to provide 75 WHEEL HP (100 Crank HP) gain, without something bad happening.
Uh...I dunno who your *test* person is, but if you test that *75* shot...I sure hope he's got a blank check from you in his back pocket to pay for the damage. And I hope that check is good for as long as he wants to run that *75* shot.(weeks, months??) If not, I wouldn't risk my motor just to prove your point.
You can atomize the Nitrous/Fuel all you want, you can add extra fuel via an second nozzle all you want, but the stock pump just isn't going to flow enough liquid fuel at stock pressure, not to mention OVER stock pressure to compensate for 100 Crank HP worth of Nitrous. If you lower the fuel pressure to feed the *extra* fuel nozzle, you're stealing fuel away from the stock injectors...its a loose, loose, loose, loose situation no matter how you slice it dude.
*tester* whoever you are, get a blank check, and a written statment to cover any repair/rebuilt costs. It's just not worth risking your motor. If you're going to do the 75 (100) shot, replace the fuel pump with a high flowing unit.
The stock injectors are good for about 180 Crank HP at stock fuel pressure. The stock Fuel pump is good for about 200 Crank HP worth of fuel at stock fuel pressure.
We've already established that the NX *50* kit is really a 75 (72) shot, and that the NX *75* is really a *100* shot.
We know the stock injectors can't hack 240 Crank HP (140 stock 100 nitrous). We know the stock fuel pump can't hack 240 Crank HP (140 stock+100 nitrous). If the NX kit raises the fuel pressure, you are loosing flow capability from the stock pump by raising the pressure, and you're also lowering the injector max duty cycle before injector lockup by raising the fuel pressure. So in effect, You've LOWERED the possible performance of the kit BELOW 200 Crank HP. Yet SCCA Elantra01 seems to think the NX kit is going to provide 75 WHEEL HP (100 Crank HP) gain, without something bad happening.
Uh...I dunno who your *test* person is, but if you test that *75* shot...I sure hope he's got a blank check from you in his back pocket to pay for the damage. And I hope that check is good for as long as he wants to run that *75* shot.(weeks, months??) If not, I wouldn't risk my motor just to prove your point.
You can atomize the Nitrous/Fuel all you want, you can add extra fuel via an second nozzle all you want, but the stock pump just isn't going to flow enough liquid fuel at stock pressure, not to mention OVER stock pressure to compensate for 100 Crank HP worth of Nitrous. If you lower the fuel pressure to feed the *extra* fuel nozzle, you're stealing fuel away from the stock injectors...its a loose, loose, loose, loose situation no matter how you slice it dude.
*tester* whoever you are, get a blank check, and a written statment to cover any repair/rebuilt costs. It's just not worth risking your motor. If you're going to do the 75 (100) shot, replace the fuel pump with a high flowing unit.