85 shot nitrous QnA
08-15-2001, 06:25 AM
#11
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Nitros does inject cold but as soon as it is burned it is hot. Also think of the temperature difference caused by nitros. Especially with a turbo. Turbo no doubt runs hot and then you shoot nitros in it. Thats why Id say upgrade the head gaskets and the rings. There is a shop here that does turbos all the time. They use the Denso plugs. Never have to put in another set of plugs again. And in a turbo they are know to produce horsepower by nature. Now in a non turbo like mine Ive noticed a much better throttle responce at high RMP.
Sorry Red if I offended you. I didnt mean to say you were an idiot or anything like that. Everone Ive talked to here in the performance shops and some of the nitro makers say no more than a 50 shot dry system or a 75 max semi wet system. They dont even reccomend a direct port system without upgrading the fuel system and head gaskets and/or rings.
[ August 15, 2001: Message edited by: hawaiibullrider ]
Sorry Red if I offended you. I didnt mean to say you were an idiot or anything like that. Everone Ive talked to here in the performance shops and some of the nitro makers say no more than a 50 shot dry system or a 75 max semi wet system. They dont even reccomend a direct port system without upgrading the fuel system and head gaskets and/or rings.
[ August 15, 2001: Message edited by: hawaiibullrider ]
08-15-2001, 06:43 AM
#12
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Well, the shops that you're dealing with are SELLING you something, hence the more equipment they sell, the better the profit margin.
I'm not here to sell you anything, I'm here to tell you what these motors deal with.
Let's go back to this statement:
Ok reality check. Did you know your EGT goes down almost at the same level as your intake temperature? If your car is ingesting 200 degree air, your EGT may be sitting at 1400 degrees at wide-open throttle under a 4th gear pull. If your car is pulling 100 degree air during that same run, your exhaust gas temperature will go down likely by all 100 degrees -- or at least 80+. What goes in CRITICALLY affects what comes out. Not only did your EGT's go down, but your power went up.
The deal is this: nitrous is VERY cold. Part of the reason nitrous works so well is not only because of the extra oxygen that N2O delivers into the cylinders, but simply because of the huge temperature decrease. When you burn it, it will burn no differently than any other compacted intake charge (read: turbo or supercharger). However, the intial temperature will be MUCH lower than what a turbo or supercharger will be.
When your car is eating turbocharged air, it's MUCH hotter than N/A. And it's MUCH MUCH hotter than what a nitrous injection would be. You are talking a hundred degrees or more in seperation between the two.
Again, a turbo/super car requires colder-range plugs so that the plug itself doesn't become a hot spot. This is because your motor is having to deal with VERY high temperatures in the combustion chamber. Your shop wants to use Denso Iridium plugs in a turbo car -- they don't need to, they can just use a standard NGK Copper plug that's two or three ranges colder and save YOU the customer a few bucks... But they want to SELL you things, not save you money.
When you spray nitrous, especially a LOT of it, your combustion temperatures go DOWN. When you throw boost, and lots of it, your combustion temperatures go UP. That is because turbochargers blow HOT air, and nitrous blows -- well, it blows cold "air". Very cold air.
You're wasting $50 if you're using Iridium plugs. Plugs do not increase horsepower, increasing combustion chamber efficiency creates horsepower. The only way a plug can be "shown" to increase power is because it replaced a plug that was cracked, bad, VERY cheap or misgapped.
-Red-
I'm not here to sell you anything, I'm here to tell you what these motors deal with.
Let's go back to this statement:
QUOTE
Nitros does inject cold but as soon as it is burned it is hot.
Ok reality check. Did you know your EGT goes down almost at the same level as your intake temperature? If your car is ingesting 200 degree air, your EGT may be sitting at 1400 degrees at wide-open throttle under a 4th gear pull. If your car is pulling 100 degree air during that same run, your exhaust gas temperature will go down likely by all 100 degrees -- or at least 80+. What goes in CRITICALLY affects what comes out. Not only did your EGT's go down, but your power went up.
The deal is this: nitrous is VERY cold. Part of the reason nitrous works so well is not only because of the extra oxygen that N2O delivers into the cylinders, but simply because of the huge temperature decrease. When you burn it, it will burn no differently than any other compacted intake charge (read: turbo or supercharger). However, the intial temperature will be MUCH lower than what a turbo or supercharger will be.
When your car is eating turbocharged air, it's MUCH hotter than N/A. And it's MUCH MUCH hotter than what a nitrous injection would be. You are talking a hundred degrees or more in seperation between the two.
Again, a turbo/super car requires colder-range plugs so that the plug itself doesn't become a hot spot. This is because your motor is having to deal with VERY high temperatures in the combustion chamber. Your shop wants to use Denso Iridium plugs in a turbo car -- they don't need to, they can just use a standard NGK Copper plug that's two or three ranges colder and save YOU the customer a few bucks... But they want to SELL you things, not save you money.
When you spray nitrous, especially a LOT of it, your combustion temperatures go DOWN. When you throw boost, and lots of it, your combustion temperatures go UP. That is because turbochargers blow HOT air, and nitrous blows -- well, it blows cold "air". Very cold air.
You're wasting $50 if you're using Iridium plugs. Plugs do not increase horsepower, increasing combustion chamber efficiency creates horsepower. The only way a plug can be "shown" to increase power is because it replaced a plug that was cracked, bad, VERY cheap or misgapped.
-Red-
08-15-2001, 11:43 AM
#13
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Thanks red but one other thing.
My throttle response withthe iridiums is much better for some reason. This is probably because of the efficiency of the plug. The iridiums dont require as much of a initial voltage to spark. (kinda like the same effect cause by using an ignition amplifier like an MSD ignition) This would by default cause a stronger spark with the same amount of voltage supplied to them. This would create better combustion in the chambers wouldnt it? (more efficient fuel burning) I know the digital ignitions and such alos can produce horseporwer due to the fact of supplying the sparks with a greater voltage causing more fuel in the chambers to be burned. Now I know it is menial but noticable while driving. May only equate to about 1-2 horsepower on the dyno. But its something. With all this said wouldnt the iridium plugs "produce" more horspower than your standard platinums? (especially in a boosted application.) If I'm wrong ok. But to me this makes sense.
My throttle response withthe iridiums is much better for some reason. This is probably because of the efficiency of the plug. The iridiums dont require as much of a initial voltage to spark. (kinda like the same effect cause by using an ignition amplifier like an MSD ignition) This would by default cause a stronger spark with the same amount of voltage supplied to them. This would create better combustion in the chambers wouldnt it? (more efficient fuel burning) I know the digital ignitions and such alos can produce horseporwer due to the fact of supplying the sparks with a greater voltage causing more fuel in the chambers to be burned. Now I know it is menial but noticable while driving. May only equate to about 1-2 horsepower on the dyno. But its something. With all this said wouldnt the iridium plugs "produce" more horspower than your standard platinums? (especially in a boosted application.) If I'm wrong ok. But to me this makes sense.
08-15-2001, 11:54 AM
#15
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Copper maybe a better condutor but can it handle the lrge temp drop when niro is injected? Oh and another thing about the 100 shot the aluminum heads. Wouldnt you risk warping those heads? or at least stressing them to the point to were the gaskets would be affected? Thats the problem we had trying to use a 150 shot nitro system on our 69 camaro outfitted with a 451 blower. Running nitro that high caused a whole lot of vacum leakage through the head gaskets. Had to upgrade our head gaskets because of it.
08-16-2001, 01:24 AM
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Random is correct in that copper is almost the best conductor to use, outside of gold -- which would (under high spark load) melt itself. Temperature change on the plugs is a minimal concern.
You mentioned how much charge it takes to make a plug spark -- do you realize what dictates the amount of energy required to arc across a certain amount of space? It's not the composite material that matters, it's the stuff that the electricity must arc THROUGH, and the distance it has to cover.
If you hold a sparkplug in a perfect vacuum, the voltage required to jump the space is exponentially different from holding that same sparkplug in a dense air/fuel mixture. Gap also affects this, which is why on your stock ignition the manufacturer suggests 0.043" for your plugs -- they don't say WHAT plugs, they say ALL plugs. This is because they know the coils will only output so much voltage, and they are expecting the air/fuel mixture to be of a certain density. The material your plug is built of is almost of no concern, again it's the material the arc must pass through, and how much distance between the contacts that matters.
Now about cylinder heads and head gaskets:
Do you realize that the motors running 2.5 bar (35+psi) of boost are running on STOCK head gaskets? Unlike your Felpro gasket on your old-school block, the ENTIRE gasket is metal. If 35 pounds of boost making 530+ wheel horsepower doesn't damage the stock head gasket and head, 150 shot of nitrous (cold or not) isn't going to either. The temperature change from the N20 will still be large, but not enough to cause the kind of damage you're expecting.
Again, we have at least five people just in Puerto Rico who are doing this exact same setup RIGHT NOW, and have been doing so for the past several years. 42,000 miles hasn't been enough to warp a head, blow a gasket, or burn a hole in a piston, so I'm pretty sure we're on track with these guidelines.
-Red-
You mentioned how much charge it takes to make a plug spark -- do you realize what dictates the amount of energy required to arc across a certain amount of space? It's not the composite material that matters, it's the stuff that the electricity must arc THROUGH, and the distance it has to cover.
If you hold a sparkplug in a perfect vacuum, the voltage required to jump the space is exponentially different from holding that same sparkplug in a dense air/fuel mixture. Gap also affects this, which is why on your stock ignition the manufacturer suggests 0.043" for your plugs -- they don't say WHAT plugs, they say ALL plugs. This is because they know the coils will only output so much voltage, and they are expecting the air/fuel mixture to be of a certain density. The material your plug is built of is almost of no concern, again it's the material the arc must pass through, and how much distance between the contacts that matters.
Now about cylinder heads and head gaskets:
Do you realize that the motors running 2.5 bar (35+psi) of boost are running on STOCK head gaskets? Unlike your Felpro gasket on your old-school block, the ENTIRE gasket is metal. If 35 pounds of boost making 530+ wheel horsepower doesn't damage the stock head gasket and head, 150 shot of nitrous (cold or not) isn't going to either. The temperature change from the N20 will still be large, but not enough to cause the kind of damage you're expecting.
Again, we have at least five people just in Puerto Rico who are doing this exact same setup RIGHT NOW, and have been doing so for the past several years. 42,000 miles hasn't been enough to warp a head, blow a gasket, or burn a hole in a piston, so I'm pretty sure we're on track with these guidelines.
-Red-
08-16-2001, 04:33 AM
#18
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I'm not what you consider "extremely small". The NGK copper electrodes are basically the same size as the stock NGK / ChUmpion plugs.
The size of the electrode will not really matter; a bolt of lighting (which contains many millions of volts) strikes at a surface area of about 1 square inch. 45,000 volts from the stock ignition system will probably need a surface area of about 1 thousandth of a square inch wink.gif
The size of the electrode will not really matter; a bolt of lighting (which contains many millions of volts) strikes at a surface area of about 1 square inch. 45,000 volts from the stock ignition system will probably need a surface area of about 1 thousandth of a square inch wink.gif
08-16-2001, 05:04 AM
#19
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Okay..here's a question. I was told by some people that if I get a bottle warmer for my Zex kit, it will help in performance gains. What exactly does a bottle warmer do, and do you think it's necessary? Thanx! 
08-16-2001, 07:01 AM
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When you heat a gas, it expands. For nitrous to flow at optimum levels, you need the bottle pressure WAY the hell up there -- 900psi if I remember correctly (and I may not, but it's WAY up there)
When the bottle starts getting low on funny gas, the pressure will start to drop. You can increase the pressure by heating the bottle -- which heats the gas and makes the pressure go up. It doesn't really inrease performance per-se, but makes the performance more stable as the bottle gets empty.
And make sure to wire the warmer 100% exactly the way they tell you to. I'm sure you've seen the "Maxima Nos Explosion" webpage, where some idiot in his Maxima left his bottle warmer active and totally destroyed the back half of his Max -- along with his garage door (parked in the garage) Retard didn't wire the warmer according to the instructions, as he thought he would be Mr. Man and allow the warmer to be active when the car was off (for whatever stupid reason). After the warmer stayed on for probably several hours, the pressure inside the tank grew to the point where it exploded. And Mr. Man also seemed to have plugged the vent valve, because otherwise it would have just blown the emergency vent.
Anyway, just do it exactly the way they tell you to,and you'll have no problems.
-Red-
When the bottle starts getting low on funny gas, the pressure will start to drop. You can increase the pressure by heating the bottle -- which heats the gas and makes the pressure go up. It doesn't really inrease performance per-se, but makes the performance more stable as the bottle gets empty.
And make sure to wire the warmer 100% exactly the way they tell you to. I'm sure you've seen the "Maxima Nos Explosion" webpage, where some idiot in his Maxima left his bottle warmer active and totally destroyed the back half of his Max -- along with his garage door (parked in the garage) Retard didn't wire the warmer according to the instructions, as he thought he would be Mr. Man and allow the warmer to be active when the car was off (for whatever stupid reason). After the warmer stayed on for probably several hours, the pressure inside the tank grew to the point where it exploded. And Mr. Man also seemed to have plugged the vent valve, because otherwise it would have just blown the emergency vent.
Anyway, just do it exactly the way they tell you to,and you'll have no problems.
-Red-