Thanks for the article,it's more proof than I have. I guess when I see pro's braking cars they use ABS usually, though I guess because ABS cars can't really be threshold braked.

 

ABS is a system that deals with wheel lock. The idea of threshold braking is that you don't lock the wheels at all, because you will be pulling the most stopping Gs right before lockup.



The ABS won't cut in unless the wheels are locking up, in which case you have already messed up threshold braking.

 

But the rears lock up first with ABS. It an excellent indicator you are at that point. Just let up a bit more. But in reality if you are too close to the turn you lost either way. ABS only locks the wheel that is loosing traction. Not necessarily more than one. Haven't you ever seen a F1 car lock up one tire?



With the ABS you still have control whereas if you don't have it and lock the wheel you have no control over that wheel at all.

 

^ this assumes many things, not all of which apply to any particular car. Brakes can be tuned, and the ABS in my wife's truck is t3h SUCK compared to threshold braking. I know this because I CAN threshold brake in that thing, then skid, and then once I have been skidding long enough to realize it and react (i am very quick, admittedly) the thing finally decides to start pulsing the ABS. Depending on conditions it's skid/slow/skid/slow when it should be just slooooow. For her (normal human level of braking skill) the ABS is decent. For me, it is too slow.

 

Sorry I'm assuming we are talking about on a track racing. If you want threshold braking for the street forget it. You get out on the track and it's nothing like any street driving.



The only place threshold braking on the street has an application is ice or water in an emergency situation.

 

The rears don't always lock up first on all cars, that is improper brake tuning if that's the case. No tire should always lock up first. If a car is designed that way they're relying too heavily on the ABS to take care of their chassis tuning deficiencies.



Having owned and driven (and raced) a wide variety of vehicles with different design intentions, I can say that most of the time when it's not excessively slick I can out brake an ABS system. On a daily driver I would prefer ABS, as it'll give me almost as good braking performance as the best I could do, but it doesn't require any additional thought on my part in an emergency situation. More importantly, it can do almost as good as I can regardless of the skill level of whoever is driving. And that is no small feat. Without the widespread use of ABS we have today it would become apparent how poor most people's braking skills really are. I remember what it was like...people sliding all over the place. It's not because the brakes suck though. it's the drivers. Excessively wet/ice I can't beat ABS, but pretty much any time there is good grip I can.







Also check out this article here. It has a wealth of knowledge.

 

But but how do you know you are out braking an ABS system? I'm just saying that unless you are going for 10/10s it's easier to just use the ABS as an indicator. Not that the ABS kicks in all the time nor that I use the brakes to their fullest extent all the time. In fact I usually drive pretty light on the brakes relatively speaking.



I'd rather drive with the ABS enabled then screw up and hit a wall or something.

 

You can out brake the ABS system in an ABS equipped car. How do I know? Accelerometer readings of threshold braking vs. letting the ABS do it's best. It would be easy enough to set up comparisons with multiple braking attempts, but I haven't done that. Other people have though and that's the results they've gotten.



But yeah, irrelevant if you're not going 10/10ths. Using threshold braking, you might even say you're going 11/10ths in a way. Going beyond the intended design capabilities of the car.



It actually isn't that tough to do threshold braking on some cars with ABS as there can be a fair amount of area above the curve on some systems.



An ideal ABS system only intervenes on tires you're breaking loose, and you still have fine control of the rest. I've never driven anything that gave that impression though.



If you're not driving for all out you shouldn't be activating the ABS or using threshold braking except for in emergency situations. I still threshold brake in emergencies (I have 4 cars with no ABS and one with rear ABS only, along with 3 that have full ABS) so during emergency braking I don't assume ABS is there. It's really irrelevant to me, if I'm near lockup but not hitting lockup or triggering ABS that's where the greatest braking force is generated. If I cross over the threshold without ABS I back off until I'm no longer locked up. With ABS I back off until it's no longer kicking back at me. That'll put you above the curve every time if it's dry and your brakes are working properly.

 

I have the most experience on my last car which was FWD and the rear brakes were modified a bit so they locked up first usually.



I did get the ABS to kick in a couple times this summer on the Gen Coupe and it was just one front tire while entering a turn. Worked pretty good as it took a lot of pedal pressure for that to happen. Not on stock tires or brake pads but with Brembo brakes.

 

Thanks for that link, good read.