Hello everyone.

So today, I finally got around to going to my local JY and picking up a cylinder head - $50 bucks for the valve cover and everything underneath it. I plan on fully working this head. There is a shop not too far away that has a GREAT reputation for their port and polish work. And they have experience with mitsu heads. I am looking at going all out and getting all of the Ferrea hardware made for our heads. Springs, retainers, locks, spring locators, and oversized (1mm) valves. Then I will get them to do a NICE 4 or 5 angle valve job with their state of the art valve seat machine. Of course the important port and polish work will also be done, along with a nice head re-surfacing to ensure a perfectly flat mating surface. (Do you think I could get a little extra taken off the surface of the head to up my compression ratio a little, or would valve interference become an issue. Also, could the stock ECU handle the slight increase?)

I would also like to get some cams, but they are all so damn expensive! I suppose if I want 282's I will need a standalone (the haltech seems to be pretty popular for the rd right?).

Is there anywhere I could send my cams to get them re-ground?

I was just wondering what type of gains I would see with all of this work? I figure it will work with or without a turbo, but I would like to go NA and push the envelope for our cars in that respect. Would it be possible to run the stock internals to say 7500 or 8000 rpm? I am only suggesting it as with higher degree cams, the powerband will move to higher rpm. And is there any way I could get a piggyback to run this setup?

Thanks for any input guys. cool.gif

I like your thinking and you're definitely on the right path.

If you're going all out make sure you get good springs that can hold higher lift that will come with more agressive cams, get titanium retainers to lighten up the valvetrain, and make sure you get good quality parts.

Since you'll be going for 282's and doing lots of head work, you will have to get your car tuned properly for the combo. That's the only way to see real gains. So, you'll need something that can control fuel and timing, I think SMT6 will do the job well, or you could go with emanage (not too familiar with those).

Our redline is about 6500, so you should be able to move it about 1000rpms higher without any worries as long as your drivetrain components can hold up to the task. You will see for your own on a dyno where the redline should be moved by looking at the new curve.

Good luck with your project and let us know how it goes smile.gif

I know this wouldn't compare to the kind of professional job your talking about, but I was about to start a thread on it. It seems fairly simple and should provide some benefit. I'm interested. I do plan to port my IM soon, and gasket match the TB.

I ported my own IM it takes forever like 4-5 hrs. IDK how much the port of the head will help Im guessing 6-15 NA yea big range thats just a guess dont quote it.

^ Take any pics?

I have a brand spankin' new Rotozip that needs breaking in.

Keep it on topic fellas.

Don't you think 272 degree would be better?
I'd contact mad_john, he had this setup on his tib with 272 cams for years before his beastly turbo setup was done.

important.
camgears and pulleys
vernier or fidanza.

As they need to be adjusted continually to get the timing right.

Thanks for so many replies. I would be going with all Ferrea hardware (very nice stuff) for the head. I already have the SR pulleys and cam gear. Don't you think the 282 degree cams would yeild a bigger gain? Although 272 would probably be better for the street and a turbo setup.

I picked up the head out of a 99 accent, so it should work fine right? I am not sure if it is a 1.8 or 2.0 to make out which cams are in it, but it looks exactly the same as the head I have in my car so it would have to be a Beta 1 right? I know for a fact that it has hydraulic lifters and the head bolts were allen heads. Just wanted to make sure it would fit before I put all of this money into it LOL.

Does the smt6 adjust the maf (or map), o2, and ignition timing? I have an SAFC II right now, but I suppose to try and tune for maximum power with it would be a joke. And how does the smt do for non-WOT adjustments like idle. I read that the SAFC can't really do anything other than during WOT because of the o2 readings going to the ECU.

Oh yeah, about the redline. My car currently goes to 6750 rpm, and it is a 1.8L so it has the shorter stroke. What do you think the maximum safe redline would be? 7500? 8000 would be SICK. I am sure it could make power up that high seeing the massive increase in duration and lift. Although internal wear will be accelerated depending on how high I make it. Could I modify the redline with an smt6? If not, what could I use? I believe our car's rev limiter is a fuel cut correct?

Thanks again guys, and sorry for so many Q's. smile.gif

272s would definitely be more street friendly, but you'll get more power out of 282s.

I don't think head from accent will fit beta. Get one from a tib.

SMT6 can control timing map and fuel map at WOT and in between, though I'm not sure if it can raise the rev limiter.

Your red limiter should be raised to the point where you stop making power. You'll see it on a dyno.

Would running a SMT-6 for timing and fuel and an MSD-DIS II for bumping up the rev limiter work together?

and my rev limiter is definetely a fuel cut (on a 1.8L tiburon as well). I believe they all are. I know because I hit top speed and felt the car hit fuel cut (actually it's fuel DUMP rather than cut). Fuel cut (cutting off all fuel) on a turbo car at 135mph could mean bad things.....

Are you serious about the accent head? WTF! I thought they had the same freakin engines as the tib? Could someone else confirm this for me? It doesn't really matter anyway as I am about to get a new subwoofer for my home entertainment setup. I won't have the money to do this for a while, if I ever get around to doing it. But getting the information out there on the forums is a good thing anyway. Thanks again.

head should fit the block. You need head for BETA engine.
For example Tiburon 1.8 and 2.0 has 82 mm bore. I don't think there are Accents with such bores.

accent head will not fit man.

accent engine are alpha's.. 02.gif so no it won't work for you..
i guees you got one from either an old 95-97 GT 1.5 or 2001+ gsi 1.6

if you're gonna spin that engine over 7000 i wouls at least put some good rod bolt, most rod failure are fastener related,balance the complete rotating assembly ( crank),rods,pistons,flywheel,crank pulley)
light weight components are also a very good idea

for the cams. in a street car i prefer the 272, they give you more bottom end wich is where you spend most of your time,if you're shooting for all out HP then go with 282's

for the rev limiter or ecu simply cut fuelling past 6750 rpm so you could wire up the smt-6 to the existing injector and "takeover" the fuel maping with the smt-6 to "remove" the rev limiter
no need for a msd to control the timing if you're using the smt-6 but the msd will add extra spark

dont really mean to highjack but its better than makin a new thread. are there any cams that be tuned just with and safc? if so which ones

Well, maybe I got the head from an elantra I know it was a 99 too, so it would be a beta 1 correct? I KNOW this head looks freaking IDENTICAL to the one on my car. Yeah, it must be off of the elantra. My dumb a** forgot, LOL. I mean, the head even has the "1.8/2.0" stamped on the front of it like the one on my tib. So, I know now that the accent had the 1.5/1.6L, that means that this head HAD to come off of the elantra (I wasn't paying too much attention to the car, just the engine) right? The under-hood layout was almost exactly the same as my tib. Can anyone confirm that elantras had the beta's in them?

Come on guys, I think I could tell the difference between a beta and an alpha head right? This head HAS to be the one I need. Please help me out here.

About the oversized valves. Are they worth the money? I mean, if I was to get all of the other Ferrea hardware for the cam upgrades, I figured I might as well spend another 300 bucks and get REALLY nice valves too. But as far as gains go, what do you think?

Thanks a lot guys. Sorry for my partial stupidity about the model type, LOL. lmao.gif

well,most cams can be tuned in with the safc,but to get all they can give you,it requires something better then the safc

Yes, elantras have the beta motor...

Wwwhheeww! That is a load off man.

BTW: Thanks for the advice on the JY idea Casper, I dunno where else I could get a complete cylider head for 50 bucks with the valve cover and all! I even got the spark plug cover, and cam gear too. Even for a JY buy I think that is pretty cheap.

I didn't think I was stupid enough to go out and get the wrong freaken head, but you never know laugh.gif .

Anyways, I was trying to get HP's 264's but I called them and they said the company in Korea they get "Hwarang" from is pretty dis-organized and they don't want to deal with them until they get their act together. He was supposed to check into it for me and give me a call but I'd say its been 3 weeks and still no response. I suppose I would be stuck to paying over 1000 bucks for cams from Kspec huh? Any ideas guys?

Thanks again for such quick replies. wink1.gif

272 stage 2 camshafts from www.rpw.com.au
Available straight off the shelf.
I'm not sure about the performance gains without a turbo.

Back again guys.

I e-mailed RPW and he said it would be around 1100 bucks, so if I do get cams, I will go for the ones from Kspec so I can support them and show appreciation for all of the help they have given me.

It has been a few weeks and I purchased that sub, so now I am getting some more money that I can use for this headwork. Any info. on the value of the oversized valves? I will definately be getting at least better (dual) springs from Ferrea. I would also like to get cams.

I need to get my mind made up on what I want to do with this car so I can tell them and they will know how much to port the head.

I would probably end up going for the 282's from kspec on the cams, would they make ANY power below 4000?

I will also be needing an e6k haltech standalone, anyone here have any experience with it or know where I could get one for cheap?

I am about to say f-it and go all out turbo, get-em to port the hell out of it and just get a loan or something and slap 10 g's into the tib, lol. I might do it though.

Thanks again for any help on the subject. wink1.gif

Bump, can anybody help me out with the above questions?

Are oversized valves really worth the money?

And is there anywhere I can source some cams for under $1000?

Thanks.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tdonnell @ Mar 2 2006, 01:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Back again guys.


I would probably end up going for the 282's from kspec on the cams, would they make ANY power below 4000?</div>

Well, I have 268's, and they dont really make any decent power until exactly 4k, unless youre in the right gear it will be laggy.

Also, they will pull to well beyond the rev limiter, at least to 7000.

Porting your head won't give you any noticable HP gains until you get up there with the mods. I'm saying if you have I/H/E, you'll see about 1whp IF your lucky. Porting your head is only supplemental to making power. It will only make it easier to make more power once you start throwing on cams/pistons.

NA hi-cams and turbo hi-cams are VERY different so make sure you get the correct ones for your car. If you need any help, PM me.

Cams are extremely tricky to tune correctly and if you do it wrong, you could actually LOSE power. For example: a set of 272 cams with stock pistons can get you around 15whp. +5-10 if you add pistons. A set of 282 cams will only get you about 10whp on stock pistons, but if you add hi-comp pistons you can gain up to 40whp with ECU tuning.

Check out the ecu-cams topic that I started.

Could you give me a brief description of the difference between a turbo cam and an NA cam?

Are you serious about the 1 hp statement, because I know quite a few people who have benefited a great deal (probably 10 whp - not 100% sure but there were noticable gains) power wise from a P&P head. Is it just the beta's design or what?

What type of standalone should I get to run all of this, or could I do it with a piggyback (I have an SAFC and a wideband with datalogging, but I seriously doubt that would unlock the full potential of the cams).

Thanks for the posts guys, and what type of car do you have the 268's in sdashia? If it is a beta, where did you get the cams?

Thanks again. cool.gif

tdonnell-

I'm serious about the minimal gain with porting, but keep in mind we're talking NA right now. Turbocharged setups benefit more. I sent you a PM explaining in more detail.

Check out my turbo ecu topic

Hello again,

Figured I would try to start this topic back up again since I now have the SR 268 degree cams.

I am thinking about getting the headwork done soon, and have a few q's about airbornes ecu re-flash that I am also considering.

I would really like to take the IM to the machine shop with the head and the phenolic spacers and tell them to port-match all of it, especially since the ports of the airram are smaller than the ones of the head.

What kind of gains would I see from a P&P now? And would it be worth it to remove the airram and get it port matched? I think I will get the head cylinder head shaved a bit to raise compression a couple tenths.

Would it be safe to redline at around 7500-7800? I would of course get stiffer valve springs if I went that far, but I am wondering if the bottom end could take it? Airborne always says 7200, but if it is safe and I will make more power I would like to go just a bit higher, that would help a lot by keeping me in the higher power range after a shift.

Would it be worth my while to go ahead and get the polished 1mm oversized valves while I am at it?

How much could I gain from the ECU re-flash? I already felt a pretty damn good gain with just the safc, but I bet these cams don't make their peak power until they are around 7.5k so... Also the timing would probably help a lot too. I know with a 270 intake cam and 256 exhaust the gain was 40 hp (according to airbornes thread), and there is no way I gained that much now, so I figure I can probably double the gain I already got by getting the flash?? Yes, no?

Thanks in advance for any input/help, and please reply, I am trying to make the tib a beast to help represent our name.

Its funny because nobody knows it is quick, they all probably think it runs 17's when it would really run 14's, lol.

Thanks again everyone. cool.gif

if i remember correctly the betas stroke will only allow to safely rev to about 7300 anything higher and youll have a motor that will last ya a few thousand miles...

now if you get some custom rods and high comp pistons you might be able to rev higher...

Mmmm, ok, guess I'll wanna go for the 7200 redline after all. Thanks faith.

What about the headwork gains now that I have hi cams?

well if you get someone to do it right (ie extrude hone is like 750) with a good tune i would say about 15-20hp is possible from both the head and tune

just headwork alone i would say 10-15 if not less....

Huh, I dunno about the extrude hone, but I know the shop has a flow bench.

Everyone I talk to (including older muscle car tuners as well as import tuners) say that this is the shop to go to so I would expect top notch work.

Hopefully airborne will respond to my PM here soon, so I can ship him out the ecu.

Are oversized valves worth it? Guess since I'll be staying at 7200 my stock valvtrain will work just fine.

Will shaving off some of the head to increase compression yeild any serious gains?

Thanks again for all the help.

well shaving the head also messes up the quelch area which would cause some problems i know madjohn had some crazy high compression with a shaved head (like 12.5:1) and the 1.8 pistons

extrude hone is a company that does GREAT work alot of professional drivers use them to do stuff like that instead of just enlarging the hole and hoping it increases hp extrude hone uses some wierd putty lookin stuff makes the metal smooth and it increases velocity

ive always wondered if a extrude honed stock IM and head would do...

ferrea (sp?) makes oversized valves, stronger retainers, and better springs
rpw i heard makes them too but i havent been able to confirm(i know they do the springs and retainers at least...)

IQFOREVA had an Extrude Honed manifold and RSide TB. He sold it to someone here I believe.

Extrude Hone uses a putty not that dissemilar to Silly Putty (mixed with abrasives). Silly putty is in a unique catagory of substances. Solids that flow like liquids. By using these unique properties, the putty can carefully grind away ONLY what causes obstructions in the flow.

As for raising the redline. I would not go beyond 7200 without some serious lightening and balancing of the crank, rods, and pistons. Get the best you can to start with and go from there. Might also want to look into better head and rod bolts to keep it all buttoned down as well.

Good stuff guys, thanks.

No doubt from the advice I have recieved here I will not be raising the redline to more than 7200.

Can't I get ARP head studs? I think JonGtr mentioned something about ARP studs. I know there is a sticky somewhere, I'll have to find it.

It's a sticky in the FI section.

Damn, is it just me or are those studs and nuts expensive? It would cost over 200 bucks for head studs?? Or is it 100 (do you get 2 for 25?). That seems pretty expensive??

Still wondering what kind of gains I could see from a port/polish and airbornes ecu flash (has yet to respond to my pms!)? Any ideas?

If I did get it done I would get it ported a little bigger than I would need it now, that way I wouldn't have to pay to do it again for the turbo setup, just get it ported to flow a bit more than I can right now.

Thanks.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>IQFOREVA had an Extrude Honed manifold and RSide TB. He sold it to someone here I believe.</div>


that r-side wasn't extrude honed, just a regular kspec r-side BBTB. I believe Screwdriver (Aviv) has it now unless he sold it to someone else. I love following parts around this site, LOL.

Ok guys, I figured I would bring this topic back to life considering the fact that I just dropped my cylinder head off at that well known shop I was talking about.

I decided to go with custom oversized MANLEY valves. He said they are just as good as ferrea and they are located right in NJ so they are only 1-2 hours away (faster turnover rate). Anyway, I discussed many things with him in regards to what I want and how much power I would roughly expect. I ended up with a rough figure of about 10-15 whp with the valves, port and polish work, and 5 angle valve job (no stones here, they have a completely CNC valve job machine with custom radius bits to cut the valve seats).

Anyway, I paid 350 for the valves (21.80 ea.). That is roughly 1-2 dollars less each than the ferrea.

I decided to go with the stock springs, retainers, etc. since there is no easy way to increase redline without a standalone, and the stock springs should be good to prevent float up to 7250 (according to airborne) since the cams I have don't increase lift too significantly compared to stock. They are 268's at 9.2mm of lift. Also, the bottom end would have trouble holding up for an extended period of time with any faster speed than 7250 if I do eventually raise it.

He is going to shave the head roughly .004 to .010" (depends on how warped it is, if at all). He said the average need is about .005".

I need to take him an IM, EX, and head gasket so he can see how far he can go with the porting. He also said he needed the head gasket to see if he can scoot that straight down section near the exhaust valves farther out to help flow.

They will be smoothing out all combustion chamber surfaces, cutting the valve seats with a 5 angle cutter, and porting inward and out toward the gasket surfaces from there.

Hopefully I can manage to get a good gain out of this since overall it will cost 800-1000 dollars including the valves.

I decided to use a dremel to port out the Airram as much as I can, although I don't think I will be able to do too effective of a job considering the depth of the ports. I may have him do it depending on the price. Regardless, he said its not too big of a deal if the IM ports are smaller than the head ports, but the airram ports are already smaller than the head intake ports so I think I could surely gains some flow if I increase the IM port size. I should be able to unbolt that top cover peice to gain access to the top of the ports correct?

I have a question, I have heard of using the 1.8L pistons (which I have in my old engine hehe) with a beta 2 head gasket will increase compression from 10.3 to 11.3 right? So that means the beta 2 head gasket must be thinner correct? Does it have the exact same layout design as the beta 1? I would assume so. I only ask this because if he needs a gasket I will just go get and use a beta 2 gasket, but I want to make sure it is exactly the same so he doesn't port it incorrectly. Although it is a better idea just to pull the head off my 1.8 motor and give him the used gasket so the new 150 dollar gasket doesn't get fvcked up.

Thanks for any inputs you may have and answers to the above questions would be much appreciated. smile.gif

Bump.