Screwed Up Business Practices, Quick Buck Mfr's
07-27-2005, 08:26 PM
#11
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Sorry for the bad english, supply and demand indeed.
Listen, you will never get me to agree to go against good entrepreneurship. He saw an occasion and jumped on it. Is it the same person that asked you to get a company to make something, no.
If the company takes a few month while this dude could do it in a few days, where is the problem? I would understand the grippe if he made crappy quality product, but i don't think it's the case. We are not talking rocket science here, a simple spacer. Could be made at any shop equiped with a cnc. Bring an oem gasket, state desired specs and bingo. I would rather give my money to someone rather than to a company for this kind of simple product.
About your little scenario, i would drop my price or terminate project. It's only fair competition. Usually, users that make parts don't do it for a living. They make some for themselves and they want to let other user enjoy it as well. Someone pulling the carpet under someone feet is a plague that hits lazy compagnies or those who overcharge.
Listen, you will never get me to agree to go against good entrepreneurship. He saw an occasion and jumped on it. Is it the same person that asked you to get a company to make something, no.
If the company takes a few month while this dude could do it in a few days, where is the problem? I would understand the grippe if he made crappy quality product, but i don't think it's the case. We are not talking rocket science here, a simple spacer. Could be made at any shop equiped with a cnc. Bring an oem gasket, state desired specs and bingo. I would rather give my money to someone rather than to a company for this kind of simple product.
About your little scenario, i would drop my price or terminate project. It's only fair competition. Usually, users that make parts don't do it for a living. They make some for themselves and they want to let other user enjoy it as well. Someone pulling the carpet under someone feet is a plague that hits lazy compagnies or those who overcharge.
07-27-2005, 10:45 PM
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Funny how people starts to scream when they are (at least partially) involved in something, and do nothing when they're not.
Remember that injector spacer GB, and the guy that offered to make them cheaper right at the time when Denis/AtelierHP offered them? I do. It's the same friggin' matter we have on hand here, and some people seems to have switched sides, eh?
Here's what you had to say, Redz, about that matter back then (2 months ago):
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, how the hell did this argument get to this point?
Goddamnit, folks, stop your b****ing and support who you want to support. All of this shit is OFF TOPIC and warnings are getting issued.
Neither of you guys are obviously business men, as competition is GREAT for prices and for better parts</div>
(Edit: that quote is integrally taken from this post)
Odd how it seems to contradict what you're saying. But I'm sure every little word in this very post will be dissected to conclude that I prove your point or something baby.gif
Yes, that spacer thing DID piss me off a LOT, so this post is obviously emotional. So warn me or something wiggle.gif
It's always soooo nice to argue on the internet wink1.gif The one that wins the arguement is always the one who can quote more stuff from the precedent post, and some people are very good at it here wink1.gif I was pretty good at it too, back then. But I grown up.
I guess I must say that I consider what Redz is saying right now to be correct; focus should be put on companies that wants to support us. It just pisses me off that AtelierHP couldn't get that support from RD 2 months ago.
Remember that injector spacer GB, and the guy that offered to make them cheaper right at the time when Denis/AtelierHP offered them? I do. It's the same friggin' matter we have on hand here, and some people seems to have switched sides, eh?
Here's what you had to say, Redz, about that matter back then (2 months ago):
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, how the hell did this argument get to this point?
Goddamnit, folks, stop your b****ing and support who you want to support. All of this shit is OFF TOPIC and warnings are getting issued.
Neither of you guys are obviously business men, as competition is GREAT for prices and for better parts</div>
(Edit: that quote is integrally taken from this post)
Odd how it seems to contradict what you're saying. But I'm sure every little word in this very post will be dissected to conclude that I prove your point or something baby.gif
Yes, that spacer thing DID piss me off a LOT, so this post is obviously emotional. So warn me or something wiggle.gif
It's always soooo nice to argue on the internet wink1.gif The one that wins the arguement is always the one who can quote more stuff from the precedent post, and some people are very good at it here wink1.gif I was pretty good at it too, back then. But I grown up.
I guess I must say that I consider what Redz is saying right now to be correct; focus should be put on companies that wants to support us. It just pisses me off that AtelierHP couldn't get that support from RD 2 months ago.
07-27-2005, 11:17 PM
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I see the point Agarwal & RedZ are trying to make but I personally feel that it's a moot point.
<u>I</u> could not really give two knobs of goat shit about some of the bigger companies out there that conduct never-ending "market research" just to ensure they will make decent enough profits from the manufacture & sale of a particular product. At the same time, I have nothing against them either... I'm neutral, so-to-speak.
Col had mentioned wanting to make these spacers for some time now... The fact that some company is now making or planning to make some spacers is irrelevant.
I can't see Col profiting too greatly from these short-run products... But if he does, more power to him.
RedZ, you often have a hand in these things & I feel that sometimes this can maybe cloud your better judgement.
EDIT* Sorry for all the edits & typos... My puppy is being a pain & is climbing all over my laptop wink1.gif
<u>I</u> could not really give two knobs of goat shit about some of the bigger companies out there that conduct never-ending "market research" just to ensure they will make decent enough profits from the manufacture & sale of a particular product. At the same time, I have nothing against them either... I'm neutral, so-to-speak.
Col had mentioned wanting to make these spacers for some time now... The fact that some company is now making or planning to make some spacers is irrelevant.
I can't see Col profiting too greatly from these short-run products... But if he does, more power to him.
RedZ, you often have a hand in these things & I feel that sometimes this can maybe cloud your better judgement.
EDIT* Sorry for all the edits & typos... My puppy is being a pain & is climbing all over my laptop wink1.gif
07-27-2005, 11:22 PM
#14
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LarryMcFly @ Jul 27 2005, 08:26 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>If the company takes a few month while this dude could do it in a few days, where is the problem?<div align='right'><{POST_SNAPBACK}></div></div>
Well the problem was listed. Great, 5 to 10 folks get an item now, and everyone else gets screwed out of a chance to buy the same product.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I would understand the grippe if he made crappy quality product, but i don't think it's the case.</div>
Well, that's why I offered to test all 3 of the available spacers, to see which is the best. That was COMPLETELY ignored. Considering it's a "backyard mechanic", I don't know the quality of material being used, I do know, that the experience isn't there.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Could be made at any shop equiped with a cnc. Bring an oem gasket, state desired specs and bingo.</div>
Wish that was the case, try getting it done. We've tried getting it done for a few years.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I would rather give my money to someone rather than to a company for this kind of simple product.</div>
And that's the difference. I'd rather get EVERYONE the chance to get that product, now, and later.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>About your little scenario, i would drop my price or terminate project.</div>
And I rest my case.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agarwal @ Jul 27 2005, 10:45 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Remember that injector spacer GB, and the guy that offered to make them cheaper right at the time when Denis/AtelierHP offered them? I do. It's the same friggin' matter we have on hand here, and some people seems to have switched sides, eh?
<div align='right'><{POST_SNAPBACK}></div></div>
Sorry if it seems that way, but from my POV (Correct me if I'm wrong), that was the equivalent of two guys making the same part in their small shops right? If that had the same implications, I'd have said something different.
My case in point here is that this has happened EVERY time a item is up for sale.
1. We needed new BBTB's, Rside decided to make some more, right when this all went on OZ decided to make some BBTB's for us, in one size, and only a few of them. Didn't bother to even consider the dozens of requests for some 70MM ones.
2. The Rside Shifter GB was running, low and behold, OZ puts out his own shifter, to sell a few real quick, and it's pretty damned close to looking identical.
3. IM Spacers, I post about the spacers from Hondata.com and he puts up some spacers within a week.
4. TB spacers. Outlaw is making them for us right now, but again, right when it starts coming thru, OZ amazingly decides it's a great time to sell some TB spacers. Just enough.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Odd how it seems to contradict what you're saying. But I'm sure every little word in this very post will be dissected to conclude that I prove your point or something baby.gif</div>
...
...
nana.gif fing02.gif drillsergeant.gif
No, but I see what you are getting at. Hey, you and I have been at this thing online for some time, you've seen them come and go just like me. CNK, Kore, and others. I just want to keep the companies that will be making the majority of their money elsewhere MAKING parts for us too.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Yes, that spacer thing DID piss me off a LOT, so this post is obviously emotional. So warn me or something wiggle.gif</div>
Me too. Both sides. I'd love to get one one of these days, and as I told ya, I'd pick up Dennist's spacer. Why would you get warned?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>But I grown up.</div>
I'll stop. I'm just here too much.
OZ, the only ones of these things I've got my hands in are the items we sell at Kspec.com when I run a GB. Otherwise I try to support all the new items that come out for us.
Outlaw Engineering didn't do much research, they saw there is a need, Chris is a good talker about this sort of stuff, and they are making them for us.
Well the problem was listed. Great, 5 to 10 folks get an item now, and everyone else gets screwed out of a chance to buy the same product.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I would understand the grippe if he made crappy quality product, but i don't think it's the case.</div>
Well, that's why I offered to test all 3 of the available spacers, to see which is the best. That was COMPLETELY ignored. Considering it's a "backyard mechanic", I don't know the quality of material being used, I do know, that the experience isn't there.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Could be made at any shop equiped with a cnc. Bring an oem gasket, state desired specs and bingo.</div>
Wish that was the case, try getting it done. We've tried getting it done for a few years.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I would rather give my money to someone rather than to a company for this kind of simple product.</div>
And that's the difference. I'd rather get EVERYONE the chance to get that product, now, and later.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>About your little scenario, i would drop my price or terminate project.</div>
And I rest my case.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agarwal @ Jul 27 2005, 10:45 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Remember that injector spacer GB, and the guy that offered to make them cheaper right at the time when Denis/AtelierHP offered them? I do. It's the same friggin' matter we have on hand here, and some people seems to have switched sides, eh?
<div align='right'><{POST_SNAPBACK}></div></div>
Sorry if it seems that way, but from my POV (Correct me if I'm wrong), that was the equivalent of two guys making the same part in their small shops right? If that had the same implications, I'd have said something different.
My case in point here is that this has happened EVERY time a item is up for sale.
1. We needed new BBTB's, Rside decided to make some more, right when this all went on OZ decided to make some BBTB's for us, in one size, and only a few of them. Didn't bother to even consider the dozens of requests for some 70MM ones.
2. The Rside Shifter GB was running, low and behold, OZ puts out his own shifter, to sell a few real quick, and it's pretty damned close to looking identical.
3. IM Spacers, I post about the spacers from Hondata.com and he puts up some spacers within a week.
4. TB spacers. Outlaw is making them for us right now, but again, right when it starts coming thru, OZ amazingly decides it's a great time to sell some TB spacers. Just enough.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Odd how it seems to contradict what you're saying. But I'm sure every little word in this very post will be dissected to conclude that I prove your point or something baby.gif</div>
...
...
nana.gif fing02.gif drillsergeant.gif
No, but I see what you are getting at. Hey, you and I have been at this thing online for some time, you've seen them come and go just like me. CNK, Kore, and others. I just want to keep the companies that will be making the majority of their money elsewhere MAKING parts for us too.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Yes, that spacer thing DID piss me off a LOT, so this post is obviously emotional. So warn me or something wiggle.gif</div>
Me too. Both sides. I'd love to get one one of these days, and as I told ya, I'd pick up Dennist's spacer. Why would you get warned?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>But I grown up.</div>
I'll stop. I'm just here too much.
OZ, the only ones of these things I've got my hands in are the items we sell at Kspec.com when I run a GB. Otherwise I try to support all the new items that come out for us.
Outlaw Engineering didn't do much research, they saw there is a need, Chris is a good talker about this sort of stuff, and they are making them for us.
07-27-2005, 11:29 PM
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Unfortunatly, REDZ is correct in his argument. Like it or not, if we someday want all the (or even a few) of the good parts that the Honda boys get, we need to court the medium and large companies to even consider producing the parts for us.
It really is bad timing on Col's part to offer these now. I realise he saw a demand for the parts to judge by the remarks on this site, but I can also tell he is not doing it for a profit either.. not at the prices he is offering it at.
I am not picking on your Col, but I think it is in everyone's best interest if you do not widely market these parts until after the group buy is said and done. I am sure there are people down on your side of the world who could use your spacers who do not want to spend the money on shipping from Outlaw.. try and court them.
The problem we have now.. our cars are ancient by today's standards. Hyundai has not produced an RD series since late 2001 and even today's Beta engines are quite a bit different and only running on borrowed time until the Theta comes out. What I am trying to say, the chances of us getting new manufactorers on board to produce parts for us grows less and less with each passing day, we need all the help we can get.
It really is bad timing on Col's part to offer these now. I realise he saw a demand for the parts to judge by the remarks on this site, but I can also tell he is not doing it for a profit either.. not at the prices he is offering it at.
I am not picking on your Col, but I think it is in everyone's best interest if you do not widely market these parts until after the group buy is said and done. I am sure there are people down on your side of the world who could use your spacers who do not want to spend the money on shipping from Outlaw.. try and court them.
The problem we have now.. our cars are ancient by today's standards. Hyundai has not produced an RD series since late 2001 and even today's Beta engines are quite a bit different and only running on borrowed time until the Theta comes out. What I am trying to say, the chances of us getting new manufactorers on board to produce parts for us grows less and less with each passing day, we need all the help we can get.
07-27-2005, 11:45 PM
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My take on this is that I think it's great what col's doing, but I do see one big problem with it..
Col, your timing is very bad, and coincidentally(?) has been with all of your other products. I DO agree that it is wrong of you to put your items out there during GB's for the same thing by other companies. Competition is fine, but I think it sucks that you're releasing your items to be in competition with other company's GB's (for reasons why, refer to REDZ's posts).
Col should wait until the GB is over, and then release his product for those that couldn't make it, or release his product way before another company starts a GB. Otherwise yes, it is only hurting our aftermarket support.
Don't compete with GB's, you're only hurting the community. Make your products before their GB is even being planned, or release them after.
Col, your timing is very bad, and coincidentally(?) has been with all of your other products. I DO agree that it is wrong of you to put your items out there during GB's for the same thing by other companies. Competition is fine, but I think it sucks that you're releasing your items to be in competition with other company's GB's (for reasons why, refer to REDZ's posts).
Col should wait until the GB is over, and then release his product for those that couldn't make it, or release his product way before another company starts a GB. Otherwise yes, it is only hurting our aftermarket support.
Don't compete with GB's, you're only hurting the community. Make your products before their GB is even being planned, or release them after.
07-27-2005, 11:49 PM
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This topic is done & dusted as far as I'm concerned.
I personally am quite happy for Col to keep making quality stuff that I can use on my car... His custom stuff is the sh*t & like Mad said, I get headaches just thinking about shipping from overseas.
It's a real shame that it's come to this though... RedZ, I don't know what steps were taken to get in touch with Col prior to this public outcry that basically suggests that he is profiteering from other people's/companies' efforts but this is not the type of thing that I was looking forward to come back to after 2 days of not being able to access the site... It's a real shame.
offtopic.gif BTW RedZ, you keep calling Col "OZ"... It's confuzzling!
I personally am quite happy for Col to keep making quality stuff that I can use on my car... His custom stuff is the sh*t & like Mad said, I get headaches just thinking about shipping from overseas.
It's a real shame that it's come to this though... RedZ, I don't know what steps were taken to get in touch with Col prior to this public outcry that basically suggests that he is profiteering from other people's/companies' efforts but this is not the type of thing that I was looking forward to come back to after 2 days of not being able to access the site... It's a real shame.
offtopic.gif BTW RedZ, you keep calling Col "OZ"... It's confuzzling!
07-27-2005, 11:52 PM
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Well, I know/believe Redz is 100% correct right now, and that's my point.
OT, but well... AtelierHP is a small shop, I guess. But they're still a shop, and not some random guy with access to a CNC. Believe me, Redz, if you'd live here, when you think "Hyundai tuning" you'd think "AtelierHP" is a synonym.
I believe the proportion of tuned Hyundai's here in Quebec is pretty high (I'm pretty sure we have the highest ratio of swapped Accent for North America, or at least a damn good part of it) solely because of AtelierHP. They work on them a lot, and they do their job well.
I guess I was just sad to see that people weren't as enthusiastic about the shop and it's willingness to "enter" US market as I was... but I can understand that; I get to see them work, and talk to almost every guy that had their Hyundai tuned by them. You guys don't.
Bah... nevermind. The important thing is that RD parts are still getting made. I'm sure some of you will benefit from AtelierHP parts in the future, so it's all good wink1.gif
OT, but well... AtelierHP is a small shop, I guess. But they're still a shop, and not some random guy with access to a CNC. Believe me, Redz, if you'd live here, when you think "Hyundai tuning" you'd think "AtelierHP" is a synonym.
I believe the proportion of tuned Hyundai's here in Quebec is pretty high (I'm pretty sure we have the highest ratio of swapped Accent for North America, or at least a damn good part of it) solely because of AtelierHP. They work on them a lot, and they do their job well.
I guess I was just sad to see that people weren't as enthusiastic about the shop and it's willingness to "enter" US market as I was... but I can understand that; I get to see them work, and talk to almost every guy that had their Hyundai tuned by them. You guys don't.
Bah... nevermind. The important thing is that RD parts are still getting made. I'm sure some of you will benefit from AtelierHP parts in the future, so it's all good wink1.gif
07-28-2005, 12:27 AM
#19
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zoned019 @ Jul 27 2005, 11:45 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>My take on this is that I think it's great what col's doing, but I do see one big problem with it..
<div align='right'><{POST_SNAPBACK}></div></div>
Same with me.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Don't compete with GB's, you're only hurting the community. Make your products before their GB is even being planned, or release them after.</div>
This EXACT situation arose between Kspec.com and Real Engineering. Rick put up a GB for the VHR clutch kits the same day I was going to. He got his up first and I PM'ed him and didn't post mine, as to keep from messing with his sales.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OzFxCoupe @ Jul 27 2005, 11:49 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>It's a real shame that it's come to this though... RedZ, I don't know what steps were taken to get in touch with Col prior to this public outcry that basically suggests that he is profiteering from other people's/companies' efforts but this is not the type of thing that I was looking forward to come back to <div align='right'><{POST_SNAPBACK}></div></div>
I took no efforts to contact him. My feelings of his practices were posted before. That's what these forums are for. If I've got a few folks to look at the BIGGER picture here, I've done my job.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agarwal @ Jul 27 2005, 11:52 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>I guess I was just sad to see that people weren't as enthusiastic about the shop and it's willingness to "enter" US market as I was... but I can understand that; I get to see them work, and talk to almost every guy that had their Hyundai tuned by them. You guys don't.
<div align='right'><{POST_SNAPBACK}></div></div>
Remember man, we don't know anything about this guy or his shop. We've just had a few posts and a few mentions of the items. A few pics and such. We don't really know that much do we?
<div align='right'><{POST_SNAPBACK}></div></div>
Same with me.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Don't compete with GB's, you're only hurting the community. Make your products before their GB is even being planned, or release them after.</div>
This EXACT situation arose between Kspec.com and Real Engineering. Rick put up a GB for the VHR clutch kits the same day I was going to. He got his up first and I PM'ed him and didn't post mine, as to keep from messing with his sales.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OzFxCoupe @ Jul 27 2005, 11:49 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>It's a real shame that it's come to this though... RedZ, I don't know what steps were taken to get in touch with Col prior to this public outcry that basically suggests that he is profiteering from other people's/companies' efforts but this is not the type of thing that I was looking forward to come back to <div align='right'><{POST_SNAPBACK}></div></div>
I took no efforts to contact him. My feelings of his practices were posted before. That's what these forums are for. If I've got a few folks to look at the BIGGER picture here, I've done my job.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agarwal @ Jul 27 2005, 11:52 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>I guess I was just sad to see that people weren't as enthusiastic about the shop and it's willingness to "enter" US market as I was... but I can understand that; I get to see them work, and talk to almost every guy that had their Hyundai tuned by them. You guys don't.
<div align='right'><{POST_SNAPBACK}></div></div>
Remember man, we don't know anything about this guy or his shop. We've just had a few posts and a few mentions of the items. A few pics and such. We don't really know that much do we?
07-29-2005, 10:21 AM
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By the way Agarwal, Total Auto in Quebec has more swapped accent in it's history wink1.gif They were actually the FIRST in the province to swap an accent in Eric's rally accent back in 97. But Atelier HP is better at tuning and modifying a hyundai. God bless master Denis. Supertech ruling all hyundai.
About the topic, sorry, I changed my mind, I reread the whole thing over. I thought that the situation was different than what it is. I tought that he was selling his stuff before the gb was annouced.
I don't agree with someone proposing a product AFTER a gb has been announced unless is a LOT cheaper for equal quality. They should wait after the gb is completed, a question of respect.
I still rather give my money to local initiative rather than a large company for a simple product.
About the injector/spacer from Atelier HP, what was even worst was that the other guy did not even have a prototype...he spent no effort while denis spent time developping his great quality product.
I don't usually wait after companies to produce something for me, I would rather get it done custom. Then again, there are a lot of local shop here that are willing to do this work for a decent price which might not be everyones case.
About the topic, sorry, I changed my mind, I reread the whole thing over. I thought that the situation was different than what it is. I tought that he was selling his stuff before the gb was annouced.
I don't agree with someone proposing a product AFTER a gb has been announced unless is a LOT cheaper for equal quality. They should wait after the gb is completed, a question of respect.
I still rather give my money to local initiative rather than a large company for a simple product.
About the injector/spacer from Atelier HP, what was even worst was that the other guy did not even have a prototype...he spent no effort while denis spent time developping his great quality product.
I don't usually wait after companies to produce something for me, I would rather get it done custom. Then again, there are a lot of local shop here that are willing to do this work for a decent price which might not be everyones case.