turbo help
07-09-2002, 10:03 AM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 423
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
turbo help
Random, Red, 2 uniq anyone that knows about the TD04 alpine set up.
Just a few questions i have searched the site but cant find specific answers on what im after.
The first is what compressor wheel does alpine use and what ps do they send it out at.i know the turbo is the TD04E found that in Randoms post.
Secondly what is the best way to up the power of the turbo as i notice the power dies off at high rpm and it seems to operate better at 3/4 throttle rather than WOT.
the reason i ask the second question is all i can find is what retailers say about dump valves, waste gates etc.But they all say MORE POWER because they want to sell the parts.
What i want to know is what will realy give me more power throughout the range, if this turbo can handle it and how to increase the turbo at the higher rpm for this setup.
dont worry about saying engine upgrades ive done my search on that and found all the info i need im just after what excactly does what on the turbo, boost controllers, dump valves etc.
Any help would be great.
Just a few questions i have searched the site but cant find specific answers on what im after.
The first is what compressor wheel does alpine use and what ps do they send it out at.i know the turbo is the TD04E found that in Randoms post.
Secondly what is the best way to up the power of the turbo as i notice the power dies off at high rpm and it seems to operate better at 3/4 throttle rather than WOT.
the reason i ask the second question is all i can find is what retailers say about dump valves, waste gates etc.But they all say MORE POWER because they want to sell the parts.
What i want to know is what will realy give me more power throughout the range, if this turbo can handle it and how to increase the turbo at the higher rpm for this setup.
dont worry about saying engine upgrades ive done my search on that and found all the info i need im just after what excactly does what on the turbo, boost controllers, dump valves etc.
Any help would be great.
07-09-2002, 10:42 AM
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 1,436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Listening to Random on the phone, I don't think you have confused the turbo model. A true T04E will not spool at 2000 RPM's and continue creating boost even at partial throttle -- these turbos are fairly large and will have a bit more *lag* before they spool. A true T04E will also not fall on it's face after 5K on the tach...
A TD04 turbo is an entirely different story, and is likely the turbo that Alpine has chosen to use. A TD04/14b is a very small unit, this is what the stock Mitsubishi Eclipse (US market) 210 horsepower models used for certain years. The top effective output of one of these is about 270-280 crank horsepower, at which point it's sorely out of it's efficiency range.
The best thing I could think to do here is to upgrade to a larger turbo. The TD04 platform is fairly small. Depending on the flange style, you could upgrade perhaps to a TD05/16G or 18G, or maybe even go psycho and do a TD06/20G. Again, this entirely depends on the exhaust mating flange on the turbo manifold.
I wouldn't worry about dump tubes, wastegates, popoff/blowoff valves until you have a larger turbo. That little TD04/14b isn't gonna flow enough to worry yet...
A TD04 turbo is an entirely different story, and is likely the turbo that Alpine has chosen to use. A TD04/14b is a very small unit, this is what the stock Mitsubishi Eclipse (US market) 210 horsepower models used for certain years. The top effective output of one of these is about 270-280 crank horsepower, at which point it's sorely out of it's efficiency range.
The best thing I could think to do here is to upgrade to a larger turbo. The TD04 platform is fairly small. Depending on the flange style, you could upgrade perhaps to a TD05/16G or 18G, or maybe even go psycho and do a TD06/20G. Again, this entirely depends on the exhaust mating flange on the turbo manifold.
I wouldn't worry about dump tubes, wastegates, popoff/blowoff valves until you have a larger turbo. That little TD04/14b isn't gonna flow enough to worry yet...
07-09-2002, 11:04 AM
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agreed,
Larger turbo is your best answer.
A stop gap measure would be to make the best use of the boost it is making... larger /more efficient intercooler. But all in all... you need a bigger blower.
Larger turbo is your best answer.
A stop gap measure would be to make the best use of the boost it is making... larger /more efficient intercooler. But all in all... you need a bigger blower.
07-10-2002, 01:35 AM
#4
Super Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Rancho Palos Verdes, CA
Posts: 11,851
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Vehicle: 2008 Toyota Prius 2006 Suzuki SV650S
There is a reason your power falls off above 3/4 throttle.
Up to that point you are in closed loop mode. The engine is using the O2 sensor feedback to adjust fuel trip. At wider than 3/4 throttle, it goes into open loop mode and just dumps jezus ammounts of fuel. You are probably bogging the engine with too much fuel at WOT. Try adjusting the fuel pressure regulator down about 1/8 of a turn. Keep doing this till you get detonation somewhere, or till your air/fuel gauge goes lean somehwere (you do have one, right?).
My turbo has TDO4E stamped right on the housing. That is not to say Alpine didn't use the internals or change the trim. 9psi is indeed reached at 2500 RPM. At idle, I have between 0 vacuum and .5psi
Extended low RPM runs and extended high RPM runs have shown the following....
The turbo does indeed get WAY outside it's efficency range at high RPM. At 2500 to 3000 RPM, the 9psi is delivered at about 110 degrees (with the intercooler) as measured just before the Throttle Body. At 6000 RPM, and increased speed(more air through the intercooler), that same 9psi is at about 170 degrees temp.
Up to that point you are in closed loop mode. The engine is using the O2 sensor feedback to adjust fuel trip. At wider than 3/4 throttle, it goes into open loop mode and just dumps jezus ammounts of fuel. You are probably bogging the engine with too much fuel at WOT. Try adjusting the fuel pressure regulator down about 1/8 of a turn. Keep doing this till you get detonation somewhere, or till your air/fuel gauge goes lean somehwere (you do have one, right?).
My turbo has TDO4E stamped right on the housing. That is not to say Alpine didn't use the internals or change the trim. 9psi is indeed reached at 2500 RPM. At idle, I have between 0 vacuum and .5psi
Extended low RPM runs and extended high RPM runs have shown the following....
The turbo does indeed get WAY outside it's efficency range at high RPM. At 2500 to 3000 RPM, the 9psi is delivered at about 110 degrees (with the intercooler) as measured just before the Throttle Body. At 6000 RPM, and increased speed(more air through the intercooler), that same 9psi is at about 170 degrees temp.
07-10-2002, 03:02 AM
#5
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 423
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the info.
So it looks like its a larger intercoller then save up the cash to buy a bigger turbo i just hope that some of the larger mitsu turbos will fit onto the manifold to keep the costs down.
Am i correct in saying that there is no way to increase the boost on this setup without buying aditional parts and that it wont make a lot of difference to the power especialy at top end as the turbo is basicaly just to small.
Just one more if you are cruising at about 3000-3500 rpm and you floor it do you get any bad stumbles or hesitations(possibly due to the dumping of large amounts of fuel before the turbo spools up as you mentioned)
So it looks like its a larger intercoller then save up the cash to buy a bigger turbo i just hope that some of the larger mitsu turbos will fit onto the manifold to keep the costs down.
Am i correct in saying that there is no way to increase the boost on this setup without buying aditional parts and that it wont make a lot of difference to the power especialy at top end as the turbo is basicaly just to small.
Just one more if you are cruising at about 3000-3500 rpm and you floor it do you get any bad stumbles or hesitations(possibly due to the dumping of large amounts of fuel before the turbo spools up as you mentioned)
07-10-2002, 03:49 AM
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 1,436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You can increase the boost with the parts you currently have, but the turbo is still too small and it will only make increased power way early in the powerband. A dyno sheet would show your power peaking way early and then rapidly falling off.
The reason you get a better intercooler is twofold: for less pressure loss / better flow, and better thermal efficiency. Essentially you're just trying to put as few obstructions to the poor little turbo so it can make the most power possible smile.gif
As for stumbling? I dunno, a well-tuned system will be absolutely seamless on throttle position changes. But I know that Random has had *less than stellar* results with the UniChip frown
The reason you get a better intercooler is twofold: for less pressure loss / better flow, and better thermal efficiency. Essentially you're just trying to put as few obstructions to the poor little turbo so it can make the most power possible smile.gif
As for stumbling? I dunno, a well-tuned system will be absolutely seamless on throttle position changes. But I know that Random has had *less than stellar* results with the UniChip frown
07-10-2002, 08:28 AM
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: parkville, md
Posts: 691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vehicle: 1997 accent L
BTW, if y'all ever read the Speedoptions message board, Ballrub (was an admin on SpeedOptions) now works for Alpine in their cali office...
07-10-2002, 04:57 PM
#8
Super Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Rancho Palos Verdes, CA
Posts: 11,851
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Vehicle: 2008 Toyota Prius 2006 Suzuki SV650S
QUOTE
skierd:
BTW, if y'all ever read the Speedoptions message board, Ballrub (was an admin on SpeedOptions) now works for Alpine in their cali office...
Great...let's go kick his ass (he's much closer than South Africa!) *laugh*BTW, if y'all ever read the Speedoptions message board, Ballrub (was an admin on SpeedOptions) now works for Alpine in their cali office...
Jon-
No, I don't have ANY stumble problems period. All of my problems are detonation/misfire related.
From 800 RPM to redline is seamless power delivery...with the exception of detonation events which retard timing.
Check out this dyno
Dyno here
You can clearly see the detonation happening around 4600 RPM on EACH run. You can also see the engine retard the timing twice. Once at 4600 RPM, and again at 5000. Then at 5500 RPM, the ECU lets the timing go back to normal, and the power SHOOTS up. (the dip that happens at 3600 RPM appears to an overfueling issue)
07-10-2002, 05:03 PM
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That dyno graph show two things... how poor the programming is... and how much potential you have in just the hardware setup..
If you could just make that torque curve into the the flattened bell curve its supposed to be...
If you could just make that torque curve into the the flattened bell curve its supposed to be...
07-10-2002, 09:07 PM
#10
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 423
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Great thanks for the help guys and i have to admit i dont have any guages yet as money has gone a little tight recently.Due to the fact that the army decided that when my wife was attacked a while ago and i waded in and got them of her it was not very soldier like so they took all three ranks of me and sent me to military nic for 2 months.Maybe i should have just let her take a beeting i think not.
Anyway i plan on putting a boost guage and a air/fuel guage in and i still have room for one other if you have any suggestions on what the other should be and any pointers on how things such as the air/fuel guage work position wiring etc pointers would be great.You dont have to explain if you dont want links would be great as i still just keep finding retailers links with only very basic descritions on how wonderfull thier product is.
Finally how can you adjust the boost on the setup i have i can see it on turbo diagrammes and i understand a lot more now but translating that into what is actually under the hood.I recognise the valve and i can see the acuating arm but cannot find out anything apart from uprating the spring in the valve is this the only way?
Ps i have been reading any of the posts i can find on this but they are all abreviated such as EGT i think i know what they are so if you could give me the full names so i can work from there. Thanks
Anyway i plan on putting a boost guage and a air/fuel guage in and i still have room for one other if you have any suggestions on what the other should be and any pointers on how things such as the air/fuel guage work position wiring etc pointers would be great.You dont have to explain if you dont want links would be great as i still just keep finding retailers links with only very basic descritions on how wonderfull thier product is.
Finally how can you adjust the boost on the setup i have i can see it on turbo diagrammes and i understand a lot more now but translating that into what is actually under the hood.I recognise the valve and i can see the acuating arm but cannot find out anything apart from uprating the spring in the valve is this the only way?
Ps i have been reading any of the posts i can find on this but they are all abreviated such as EGT i think i know what they are so if you could give me the full names so i can work from there. Thanks