Turbo Charger and super Charger, difference?
08-09-2001, 01:46 PM
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Turbo Charger and super Charger, difference?
I was wondering what is the difference in between the super charger and the Turbo,
Random, i see you have a Turbo charger.
please do not think I am stupid for this question, but what does a turbo Charger actually do to give you more horse Power?
Thanks,
smile.gif
Random, i see you have a Turbo charger.
please do not think I am stupid for this question, but what does a turbo Charger actually do to give you more horse Power?
Thanks,
smile.gif
08-09-2001, 03:11 PM
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Go to How Stuff Works website, and type in turbo. You'll find a good piece of information on what the difference is, and how it makes more power.
08-09-2001, 03:27 PM
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This could get long folks...smoke 'em if you got em. I'm not going to go into ALL of the details...just some of them.
Superchargers and turbochargers are different. There are 3 main types of Superchargers, but really one 1 type of turbo.
The "roots" supercharger sits where your intake manifold is, and forces compressed air into the combustion chamber.
The "twin-screw" supercharger is a similar design, in the same location, but with slighly different compressor vanes and such.
Then there is the centrifical supercharger. It is closest to a turbo. It can sit anywhere it can be driven off the crank pulley.
All superchargers are driven by belts. those belts are driven by the crank. Anytime you drive something off the crank, you are taking HP away from the wheels. So superchargers "rob" some HP that otherwise would go to the wheels. This is called parasitic drag.
Turbos are driven off your exhaust gas. Of the energy released in the combustion process, approximately one third goes into the cooling system, one-third becomes power down the crank, and one third is dumped out the tailpipe as heat. Consider that a 200 HP engine dumps approximatly 70 HP equivalent of raw heat straight out the tailpipe. That is a tremendous ammount of energy that could be put to better use. Can you imagine a normal fan running off a 70 HP motor? Now you can see where turbo's get their performance potential.
At the same boost level, a turbocharger will make more HP than a supecharger, due to the parasitic drag of the supercharger being driven off the crank. Since a supercharger is tied directly into the crank, it has no 'lag' or 'boost threshold' before it starts producing compressed air "boost" for the engine. A turbo must have a certian volume of exhaust gas flowing through it to produce boost. This is most commonly refered to as "turbo lag", but is more accuratly "boost threshold". At 1200 RPM, you will not have enough exhaust gas to product boost with a turbo, but a supercharger could be producing 1.5 PSI at that RPM.
Because the superchargers do not have "lag", they have a better "bottom end" in torque, as they can produce boost as low as 1500 rpm on some models. Turbo chargers have better "top end" due to no parasitic drag, and cooler intake charge temps, so they make more HP at the same boost level.
In general, you can take a turbo to as high of a boost level as you can support with fuel and as strong as your engine is.
Most superchargers are 5x% efficient, whereas most turbochargers are at least 7x% efficient.
Thermodynamics says the air tempature should rise a certain amount based on the pressure. That tempature rise would be the ideal temperature rise. When the temperature is actually measured, it is always higher than the thermodynamic calculation indicates it should be. The measured temp rise, of course, the real temp rise. the efficiency is the calculated temp rise divided by the real temp rise. In essence, efficiency is how well the compressor (turbo or supercharger) really behaves with respect to how well thermodynamics says it should behave.
With a 100 Degree calculated temp...
a 50% eff. supercharger produces 200 degree air
a 70% eff. turbo produces 142 degree air.
Which do you want in your engine? It's your call. Supercharger fans love instant throttle boost response and a nice low end (and yell "turbo lag" at turbo guys). Turbo charger fans love top end rush, and more HP for the same boost, plus cooler intake air charge temps..so they can run more boost (and yell "Parasitic drag" at supercharger guys).
[ August 09, 2001: Message edited by: Random ]
Superchargers and turbochargers are different. There are 3 main types of Superchargers, but really one 1 type of turbo.
The "roots" supercharger sits where your intake manifold is, and forces compressed air into the combustion chamber.
The "twin-screw" supercharger is a similar design, in the same location, but with slighly different compressor vanes and such.
Then there is the centrifical supercharger. It is closest to a turbo. It can sit anywhere it can be driven off the crank pulley.
All superchargers are driven by belts. those belts are driven by the crank. Anytime you drive something off the crank, you are taking HP away from the wheels. So superchargers "rob" some HP that otherwise would go to the wheels. This is called parasitic drag.
Turbos are driven off your exhaust gas. Of the energy released in the combustion process, approximately one third goes into the cooling system, one-third becomes power down the crank, and one third is dumped out the tailpipe as heat. Consider that a 200 HP engine dumps approximatly 70 HP equivalent of raw heat straight out the tailpipe. That is a tremendous ammount of energy that could be put to better use. Can you imagine a normal fan running off a 70 HP motor? Now you can see where turbo's get their performance potential.
At the same boost level, a turbocharger will make more HP than a supecharger, due to the parasitic drag of the supercharger being driven off the crank. Since a supercharger is tied directly into the crank, it has no 'lag' or 'boost threshold' before it starts producing compressed air "boost" for the engine. A turbo must have a certian volume of exhaust gas flowing through it to produce boost. This is most commonly refered to as "turbo lag", but is more accuratly "boost threshold". At 1200 RPM, you will not have enough exhaust gas to product boost with a turbo, but a supercharger could be producing 1.5 PSI at that RPM.
Because the superchargers do not have "lag", they have a better "bottom end" in torque, as they can produce boost as low as 1500 rpm on some models. Turbo chargers have better "top end" due to no parasitic drag, and cooler intake charge temps, so they make more HP at the same boost level.
In general, you can take a turbo to as high of a boost level as you can support with fuel and as strong as your engine is.
Most superchargers are 5x% efficient, whereas most turbochargers are at least 7x% efficient.
Thermodynamics says the air tempature should rise a certain amount based on the pressure. That tempature rise would be the ideal temperature rise. When the temperature is actually measured, it is always higher than the thermodynamic calculation indicates it should be. The measured temp rise, of course, the real temp rise. the efficiency is the calculated temp rise divided by the real temp rise. In essence, efficiency is how well the compressor (turbo or supercharger) really behaves with respect to how well thermodynamics says it should behave.
With a 100 Degree calculated temp...
a 50% eff. supercharger produces 200 degree air
a 70% eff. turbo produces 142 degree air.
Which do you want in your engine? It's your call. Supercharger fans love instant throttle boost response and a nice low end (and yell "turbo lag" at turbo guys). Turbo charger fans love top end rush, and more HP for the same boost, plus cooler intake air charge temps..so they can run more boost (and yell "Parasitic drag" at supercharger guys).
[ August 09, 2001: Message edited by: Random ]
08-10-2001, 12:18 AM
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Thanks Random, 
you sure know your stuff under the hood,
do you have an Engineering degree or something or are you a just a good Mechanic?
you are a big help, know I atleast have a beter understanding of the stuff.
one little question, do know anyone that has ever run both, turbo and supercharger.
it would be interesting smile.gif
you sure know your stuff under the hood,
do you have an Engineering degree or something or are you a just a good Mechanic?
you are a big help, know I atleast have a beter understanding of the stuff.
one little question, do know anyone that has ever run both, turbo and supercharger.
it would be interesting smile.gif
08-10-2001, 02:38 PM
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Nope...I just read alot.
"twin" charging, is using both a supercharger and a turbocharger. In theory, you can elimate the "lag" of the turbo with the supercharger, and somewhat elimate the "parasitic drag" of the supercharger witht the turbo.
In reality, it is ungodly complicated to get it to work right, so 99% of applications just go with one, not both.
"twin" charging, is using both a supercharger and a turbocharger. In theory, you can elimate the "lag" of the turbo with the supercharger, and somewhat elimate the "parasitic drag" of the supercharger witht the turbo.
In reality, it is ungodly complicated to get it to work right, so 99% of applications just go with one, not both.
08-11-2001, 07:38 AM
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Hey random is this true about superchargers. I have talked to a lot of people and they all said it was. Anyway they say that if you run a supercharger, and you put the juice on it that when you hit the juice it will double the shot. So if you have a 50 pill by the time it hits the engine it's really a 100 shot. So wouldn't that make up for the difference in the power output between turbos and superchargers. 
08-11-2001, 06:54 PM
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guilty
No superchargers or turbochargers do not increase the performance of nitrous. Add in nitrous is basically adding in oxygen. As long as you add in the fuel to compenstae for the added o2, you will get more power, no matter if you are N/A, Supercharged or Turbocharged.
toneboogiey2k Yes, you can add Nitrous to give the engine more "oomph" down low and spool the turbo faster, but have a properly sized turbo would be better.
Large turbo's while great at insane flow levels, actually create more heat, and are less efficent at normal everyday driving RPM, than a properly sided small/medium turbo.
Sure anybody an slap a monster sized turbo on and add Nitrous to make it run 12's at the race track...but in reality, the car would run like crap in daily driving.
Max HP and torque numbers look good on paper, and everybody loves low E.T.'s at the drag strip....but for 99% of you, daily driving is what it is all about, with some added power to have fun with.
Look a what happened to OnPol with only 227 HP to the wheels. Shattered differential and snapped axle.
Now tell me...how many of you want to rush to beat him to 250 or 300 HP to the wheels? Do any of you have a new tranny sourced? Know of a cheap place to get new axles?
No superchargers or turbochargers do not increase the performance of nitrous. Add in nitrous is basically adding in oxygen. As long as you add in the fuel to compenstae for the added o2, you will get more power, no matter if you are N/A, Supercharged or Turbocharged.
toneboogiey2k Yes, you can add Nitrous to give the engine more "oomph" down low and spool the turbo faster, but have a properly sized turbo would be better.
Large turbo's while great at insane flow levels, actually create more heat, and are less efficent at normal everyday driving RPM, than a properly sided small/medium turbo.
Sure anybody an slap a monster sized turbo on and add Nitrous to make it run 12's at the race track...but in reality, the car would run like crap in daily driving.
Max HP and torque numbers look good on paper, and everybody loves low E.T.'s at the drag strip....but for 99% of you, daily driving is what it is all about, with some added power to have fun with.
Look a what happened to OnPol with only 227 HP to the wheels. Shattered differential and snapped axle.
Now tell me...how many of you want to rush to beat him to 250 or 300 HP to the wheels? Do any of you have a new tranny sourced? Know of a cheap place to get new axles?