Question on Turbo Tuning?
10-24-2002, 03:23 AM
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Question on Turbo Tuning?
Sup guys, well finally the car is going in for tuning, had a couple of stumbles on the way, but I think they're all solved, basically just had no time to get it done, getting ready for shows and some leaks had to be fixed...
The car goes in Saturday at 10am...
My question is, to those that tune their own cars or have gone to shops, this is my first ever turbo so I wouldn't know what to look for... What should I keep my eye on??? as far as #'s or anything...
I will go in with the frame of mind that I want the car as a daily driver, and want no more than 220 wheel HP... prolly just leave it at 215 whp...
The car goes in Saturday at 10am...
My question is, to those that tune their own cars or have gone to shops, this is my first ever turbo so I wouldn't know what to look for... What should I keep my eye on??? as far as #'s or anything...
I will go in with the frame of mind that I want the car as a daily driver, and want no more than 220 wheel HP... prolly just leave it at 215 whp...
10-24-2002, 03:44 AM
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The easiest place to start is with very rough fuel tuning. At wide-open throttle, knock all your maps to around 12:1 air fuel ratio.
Once your AF map stays at 12 consistantly through a run, start massaging the ignition timing. Start very conservatively and add more ignition advance in 1 or 2 degree increments across the board until you find that the power stops increasing. The very moment you notice no power increase per your ignition advance, back off to the previous value minus one or two degrees. This is for a nice safety margin in case you get bad gas in the future...
Remember to watch the whole dyno curve, not just your power peak. It's very likely that lower RPM maps will require less retard than high RPM maps. On your setup, I would be suprised to see you running more than 24 degrees of total advance at wide open throttle while you're on boost.
Once you get a good ignition timing curve down, then go back to the fuel and add/remove in slight increments again to see if you can modify the power further. Do it just like finding the right timing...
Once you find the optimum power curve for your fueling, knock all the numbers three to five percentage points richer.
The reason you give yourself more fuel is because your car will actually experience higher load on the street (it pulls all 3000 pounds of you, your car and your gasoline) versus on the 800 pound dyno rollers. Thus, it will need a bit more fuel on the street versus on the dyno.
[edit]
One thing you should not do is tune towards a number. Don't concern yourself with total output while on the dyno, concentrate only on making it safe. When you follow all the above directions, THEN look at your peak power and torque numbers and that's what you've got.
If it ends up below 210, leave it. The number will not be low because you tuned it wrong, it will be because there is another limitation you need to overcome somewhere.
And if it ends up above 220, then leave it. The car will be fine, enjoy the power.
[ October 24, 2002, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: Red ]
Once your AF map stays at 12 consistantly through a run, start massaging the ignition timing. Start very conservatively and add more ignition advance in 1 or 2 degree increments across the board until you find that the power stops increasing. The very moment you notice no power increase per your ignition advance, back off to the previous value minus one or two degrees. This is for a nice safety margin in case you get bad gas in the future...
Remember to watch the whole dyno curve, not just your power peak. It's very likely that lower RPM maps will require less retard than high RPM maps. On your setup, I would be suprised to see you running more than 24 degrees of total advance at wide open throttle while you're on boost.
Once you get a good ignition timing curve down, then go back to the fuel and add/remove in slight increments again to see if you can modify the power further. Do it just like finding the right timing...
Once you find the optimum power curve for your fueling, knock all the numbers three to five percentage points richer.
The reason you give yourself more fuel is because your car will actually experience higher load on the street (it pulls all 3000 pounds of you, your car and your gasoline) versus on the 800 pound dyno rollers. Thus, it will need a bit more fuel on the street versus on the dyno.
[edit]
One thing you should not do is tune towards a number. Don't concern yourself with total output while on the dyno, concentrate only on making it safe. When you follow all the above directions, THEN look at your peak power and torque numbers and that's what you've got.
If it ends up below 210, leave it. The number will not be low because you tuned it wrong, it will be because there is another limitation you need to overcome somewhere.
And if it ends up above 220, then leave it. The car will be fine, enjoy the power.
[ October 24, 2002, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: Red ]
10-24-2002, 03:59 AM
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but I don't have anything like MSD right now if that's what you meant, I'm going with stock ignition...
Kewl I understand about the HP #'s I get what I get... but the only reason I was so worried of being under 220whp, it's cause all I have at the moment is the S-AFC and I know ONPOL at 225whp already was having some problems tuning it, but then again, he had more stock stuff than I do I believe...
Kewl I understand about the HP #'s I get what I get... but the only reason I was so worried of being under 220whp, it's cause all I have at the moment is the S-AFC and I know ONPOL at 225whp already was having some problems tuning it, but then again, he had more stock stuff than I do I believe...
10-24-2002, 05:32 AM
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Do you have no way to adjust ignition timing at all?
If not, you need to figure THAT out absolutely first. You DO NEED to pull ignition timing while on boost. You cannot add another 100 wheel horsepower and NOT adjust your ignition timing to compensate...
Unless you plan on filling up with VP118 leaded race gas.
If not, you need to figure THAT out absolutely first. You DO NEED to pull ignition timing while on boost. You cannot add another 100 wheel horsepower and NOT adjust your ignition timing to compensate...
Unless you plan on filling up with VP118 leaded race gas.
10-24-2002, 05:58 AM
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sad.gif
Out of all the stuff I've seen I haven't seen how this was needed, I can't even remember if ONPOL had it, dammit, now this is bad bad news... sad.gif
these are some of the quotes to questions on other forums:
Random
[ October 24, 2002, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Bat Lord ]
Out of all the stuff I've seen I haven't seen how this was needed, I can't even remember if ONPOL had it, dammit, now this is bad bad news... sad.gif
these are some of the quotes to questions on other forums:
Random
QUOTE
Sorry, I was/still using the stock ignition system.
Using the MSD DIS-2 should not matter unless you replace the stock coils with MSD HO/Blaster coils.
looking for the others, as you see he is still using stock ignition...Using the MSD DIS-2 should not matter unless you replace the stock coils with MSD HO/Blaster coils.
[ October 24, 2002, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Bat Lord ]
10-24-2002, 06:48 AM
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I'm not sure what you're quoting, but Onpol was using the MSD DIS2 with stock coils for quite a while. He was also using the MSD BTM (boost timing module) set to pull 1.5 degrees of timing per pound of boost, which topped out at 18 degrees of ignition retard at 12psi. That puts his total ignition advance to around 17 degrees at full throttle.
You don't need the MSD to burn all the excess air/fuel, but you DO need some method of pulling ignition timing to keep from pinging like a mad man.
EDIT
Ohhhh I see, you were quoting Random. Remember, Random has the UniChip installed, and it's the Unichip that's retarding his ignition timing. He doesn't need the MSD BTM to do it, that's why he's not using an MSD ignition.
[ October 24, 2002, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: Red ]
You don't need the MSD to burn all the excess air/fuel, but you DO need some method of pulling ignition timing to keep from pinging like a mad man.
EDIT
Ohhhh I see, you were quoting Random. Remember, Random has the UniChip installed, and it's the Unichip that's retarding his ignition timing. He doesn't need the MSD BTM to do it, that's why he's not using an MSD ignition.
[ October 24, 2002, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: Red ]
10-24-2002, 07:09 AM
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yep, true, that's why I hadn't seen much of the MSD being mentioned, most of the guys turboed in here have the Alpine unit... damn damn damn this majorly sucks... sad.gif
Ok, well forget DYNO tuning this saturday then... sad.gif Coming home from work right now, the car shut off 2 times on me, on the expressway not good, it idled like crap when going to neutral or when downshifting it wasn't going, then idle under 800 and bam off goes the car... sad.gif have to see what that is now...
Ok, well forget DYNO tuning this saturday then... sad.gif Coming home from work right now, the car shut off 2 times on me, on the expressway not good, it idled like crap when going to neutral or when downshifting it wasn't going, then idle under 800 and bam off goes the car... sad.gif have to see what that is now...
10-25-2002, 08:10 AM
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Was it after applying some boost? That might be due to your open air BOV. From your pictures, it seemed that your BOV doesn't recirculate. After boost, it may idle low and die because it is running too rich from the already metered air.
10-25-2002, 09:22 AM
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Hey Batlord ....
Merely offering this as a suggestion to you. I am not sure if either will work with your current set-up. Between the S-AFC and one of these, you should be able to get all the adjustment you could want. If you are game, drop a line, and I will see if the boss will let me hook you up.
MSD DIS-2 Programmable
MSD Digital7 Programmable
Merely offering this as a suggestion to you. I am not sure if either will work with your current set-up. Between the S-AFC and one of these, you should be able to get all the adjustment you could want. If you are game, drop a line, and I will see if the boss will let me hook you up.
MSD DIS-2 Programmable
MSD Digital7 Programmable
10-26-2002, 09:16 AM
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Well guys here's the scoop, I decided to go and give it a try anyways... and guess what after all this South Florida Performance was right... and the dyno proves it...
I need an FMU, the car is running dangerously lean past 4000, and he didn't want to push it cause that would've been buh bye on the engine... So I guess I should've just installed it since I had it and not bought that B&M fuel press reg... well now I have to go buy it... so it means another 500-600 bux including dyno tuning in a week... I just want this thing complete already...
P.S. he did say that the MSD might not be needed for now, for the power I'm looking for... but we'll have to wait on that, unless DIGITAL can get back to me about his offer... email me man, korecrewpres@aol.com thanks
I need an FMU, the car is running dangerously lean past 4000, and he didn't want to push it cause that would've been buh bye on the engine... So I guess I should've just installed it since I had it and not bought that B&M fuel press reg... well now I have to go buy it... so it means another 500-600 bux including dyno tuning in a week... I just want this thing complete already...
P.S. he did say that the MSD might not be needed for now, for the power I'm looking for... but we'll have to wait on that, unless DIGITAL can get back to me about his offer... email me man, korecrewpres@aol.com thanks