Make Your Boosted Engines Bulletproof!
 

Bulletproofing...our greatest weapon against blowing our engines from spraying or boosting. What's involved you say? A crap load. Here's a list that I started on HP....moving it here...because we deserve to have it here. If someone can make this a sticky, that'd be great.

Most the items on this list was put together by Mechanix_034 on HP.com:

Block and heads teardown and blueprinting

-Honing of cylingers and bore alignment using a torque plate
-Crank alignment
-Block clearancing
-Deburring of the block
-Trueing of deck
-Cleanup of oil and water galleries
-Weld close water jackets
-Micropolishing of bearing journals[all]
-Magnaflux stress releiving on the block and sonic test

Internal rework

-Change to full Crower counter crankshaft kit
-Crower Con-rods
-Cosworth pistons
-Full race bearings[high-load]

Head rework

-Trueing of deck
-Deburring of heads
-Cam journal alignment
-Micropolishing of bearing journals
-Cleanup of oil and water galleries
-Magnaflux stress releive or cryogenic treatment

Fasteners

-Fitment of head studs
-Full ARP stud kit

-Oversize Valves and upgrade valvetrain
-5-angle valve job
-Oversize bores
-Install stroker kit[cleareneing and replacement of big end bearing if necessary for crank fitment]
-ALL reciprocating assemblies balanced
-Fix ported IM and extrudehone ports for optimum flow at a given RPM
-Cleanup of combustion chamber
-Valve seat, vlave giude replace

If anyone has anything else to add to this list...go ahead. smile.gif

Also...for those of you who just wallet tune...plan on blowing a crapload of money on these. No horsepower gain, for you n00bies thinking about doing this. Bulletproofing just ensures that you're prepared to go beyond what a stupid little turbo/super/nitrous kit can provide for you.

Oh yeah...cyro-freezing some of your parts helps. The process realigns molecules, creating a resistance from thermal breakdown. You typically see people either ceramic coat, cryo-freeze, or both. Though, doing both is drastically pricey, it doesn't really increase the longevity of the part to any signficant degree. So...either cryo-freeze or ceramic coat for thermal protection from wear/tear/breakdown.

does anyone here plan on taking their beta that far?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Patreezy)</div><div class='quotemain'>does anyone here plan on taking their beta that far?</div>

Not Beta....per se....but any engine, nonetheless. smile.gif

Now when the Tib gets to be worth 50k next week I can sell it and do this to the Honduh I'll get. tongue.gif Too expensive for little old me...

For even more detail you can go to Amazon.com and pick up :

"The Step-by-Step guide to Engine Blueprinting, Practical Methods for Racing and Rebuilding" by Rick Voegelin

I picked up my copy along with Supercharged and Maximum Boost.

do u know where to get some of this stuff im just interested in the apr stud kit do u know where 2 find it? (look at there web sight not listed for our cars)
i think..... thanks

sticky has been granted
smile.gif

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jaws021)</div><div class='quotemain'>sticky has been granted
smile.gif</div>

Danke. smile.gif

As for the ARP Stud kit...not quite sure if they make one for the Beta.

ARP currently does not have a kit for the beta...


The only person i know to use ARP on his beta was RED (the krazy one) but his was a kit that was created from spare bolts that were left in the warehouse...

Can you include prices on some of this stuff? Just curious if it's be cheaper to buy a new car lol

I am currently in the process of having an engine built for my fiat. The one thing I am doing you did not add... I am having the block and head O-ringed.. this increases the amount of pressure that the head can contain over a headgasket.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Can you include prices on some of this stuff? Just curious if it's be cheaper to buy a new car lol</div>

The only point for you to do any of these mods is if you're a true tuner, and you're true to what you do. But even for any other car, bulletproofing is still something you want to do for bulletproofing against high boosting turbos or spraying with nitrous.

This is also the step that everyone overlooks. One prime example...I know for a fact that the Delta guys using Ripp's SDS could benefit this. I know one of the guys have gone through 3 engines. Bulletproofing does help...especially if you preserve the money you've spent on your engine.

Man, you'd really have to be serious about tuning and deeply in love with your Tib to spend all that cash. I figure all of the above bulletproofing would cost more than your car. If you're into serious power it's well worth the money.

not so much in love... but I hate doing things twice... I am lazy that way. Doing a proper build up keeps me from having to do that..

As for my 132/Lancia Delta Hybrid.. I am planning on about 17 to 20 pounds boost... so bulletproofing is a must.

^^^ You wouldn't have to do all of the above unless you were looking at a true PSI-crazy track car... I've had a little bit of the above done on the GSX, don't have tens of thousands to throw around on a complete blueprint. Some of the above you do see a little bit of a HP gain on however, along with added engine logevity.

where is there a stroker kit for our cars?

Lol..Just bulletproofing would be good for most of us wouldn't it?
Would you want to do all that stuff at lower levels like ~20?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bluetibbay)</div><div class='quotemain'>Lol..Just bulletproofing would be good for most of us wouldn't it?
Would you want to do all that stuff at lower levels like ~20?</div>

20psi? Technically, you don't need to do ALL of that. Those are just what's generally covered. If you do a majority of that, you're good to go for 30+PSI. Like Mad-Machine said...do you really want to end up doing it twice? I mean...if you blew your engine by using high boost lvls and no bulletproofing...then you'd have to buy another engine...if you're lucky and nothing else didn't blow...maybe you can boost her again. 'course...no bulletproofing...means she'll blow again...and again...until you realize...wow...you could've saved yourself money by just getting your engine bulletproofed.

And no, you don't have to be "in-love" with your Tib to do that. The fact is...the Beta has seen 1000HP. 'course, not very street driveable, or legal...but if you could get near 500+HP...and turn on/off your boost for daily driving...then it's not too feasible. But you'd be in a 500+HP FWD car...and well...chances are, you'll screw up and kill yourself...or your car.

Exactly AC.. I am already working on me SECOND Lancia Delta head as the first one went missing somewhere in northern Jersey (least it was insured) and I do not want to think about having to replace it again as fiat no longer makes the 16 twin cam engine, so parts are soon to scarce.. not to mention expensive.. cost me 2000 pounds for the head alone.. plus shipping

I think what people are missing, is the fact that this applies to maybe .005 of our crowd. And of the few in that group this thread is really helpfull for reference.

Nobody ever said, all of this MUST be done. Nobody said this is something you CAN do. And for sure nobody said they'd help you do it.

Most of the parts needed for high end tuning we dont get. And if you are serious enough to need that stuff, you wouldn't be asking us for advice.

This is a serious tuner task, not even a mod. More or less its not even Tuner, its straight up Racer or Race Team kind of work.

Granted I wish I had all of the above set into my engine bay, I might only get half way there, who knows. But its good for me to look at this thread while planning out the build ahead.

Just remember, nobody here will price you out on all this stuff. They just wont. But then if you were serious in the first place you wouldn't be asking questions here, you'd have your wallet open at a qualified machine shop.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blacktibs)</div><div class='quotemain'>Just remember, nobody here will price you out on all this stuff. They just wont. But then if you were serious in the first place you wouldn't be asking questions here, you'd have your wallet open at a qualified machine shop.</div>

Nicely stated. laugh.gif:

If you're one of those people who just buys turbo kits and upgrade your stages by whatever the company comes out with for the kit...then this is something probably not for you...especially if you didn't install the kit and stages yourself. This is more for the guy who wants to do more to his engine than what a silly kit can offer, and if you're a n00b to this, and you're interested, then you should research more.

And it's not like we're being asses by not telling you how much something is...well...maybe we are, but the point is, this is something that can't really be quoted. Prices may vary, along with quality (granted the machine shop knows what they're doing). But don't expect to pay a couple hundred and think your car is ready to take on V8s. If that were the case, then we'd see a lot more tuners than ricers on the streets. tongue.gif:

^^ I don't think your asses for not pricing, I was just curious.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>And no, you don't have to be "in-love" with your Tib to do that. The fact is...the Beta has seen 1000HP. 'course, not very street driveable, or legal...but if you could get near 500+HP...and turn on/off your boost for daily driving...then it's not too feasible. But you'd be in a 500+HP FWD car...and well...chances are, you'll screw up and kill yourself...or your car.</div>

I had intended on getting the extreme kit and eventually *hopefully* reach the 500hp mark..
Why do you say 'you'll screw up and kill yourself or your car?'
Just because it's fast?

500HP and FWD don't mix... you'll crash for sure LOL. You don't know what 500HP feels like until you drive it. Even in the passenger seat you don't understand what it takes to drive that much power.

500HP on a Tib really isn't going to be daily driven either. The low compression needed to let a turbo run that is going to make it suck when your not under boost, and to make 500 you would need a fairly large turbo at that. When not under boost, you would be a slug and girls on tricycles would pedal faster than you could drive. I have enough problems in the GSX with AWD and only 350ish WHP daily driven @7.5:1 comp.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SlipStream)</div><div class='quotemain'>where is there a stroker kit for our cars?</div>

there used to be a company in Australia that had strokers for the BETA......I dont remember the name off the top of my head. I'll have to do some searching on that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tibwrcsbj)</div><div class='quotemain'>there used to be a company in Australia that had strokers for the BETA......I dont remember the name off the top of my head. I'll have to do some searching on that.</div>

RPW.com.au

Well what's the point of the extreme turbo kit then? It's good up to 400hp..
How high can you go then?
I mean what's the point of boosting if your never gonna go more than 250 HP and get your a$$ kicked at the track..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bluetibbay)</div><div class='quotemain'>Well what's the point of the extreme turbo kit then? It's good up to 400hp..
How high can you go then?
I mean what's the point of boosting if your never gonna go more than 250 HP and get your a$$ kicked at the track..</div>


Usually the max to go on a FWD is 300HP tops. So what now? What's the point? Well...if you had the money, you could get your engine bulletproofed for higher boost levels...and on top of that...you could get AWD to support your higher HP output. 'course, if you have money to go one way, you should have enough to go both ways by that point.

FWD + 300+HP = drag car (not daily driver)

So what? You want to make your car a daily driver? Then spend the big bucks for AWD. Sorry, but that's the only way you're going to prevent yourself from destroying your car. Going anymore than 300+HP on FWD is more dangerous than RWD (mostly because you'll probably take a turn, accidentally get into the boost, and find yourself between the telephone pole and the passenger door. 'course, you'd still have that problem with RWD, because of oversteer...unless the car was balanced enough, or you made it so it would induce understeer rather than oversteer.

there was an article last year where SCC took a 400hp Honda Civic out for a run.... from their descriptions, it was a mess.. when it wasn't spinning the wheels madly, they were shifting or sitting still... far too much work for the street. Personally, without an LSD 300hp on a street driven car is FAR too much. Top Gear tested an Alfa 147 with 250 BHP and the car was constantly trying to spin one wheel or another... and that was a factory hot rod, not something that somebody built out of a lower powered car.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Usually the max to go on a FWD is 300HP tops. So what now? What's the point? Well...if you had the money, you could get your engine bulletproofed for higher boost levels...and on top of that...you could get AWD to support your higher HP output. 'course, if you have money to go one way, you should have enough to go both ways by that point.

FWD + 300+HP = drag car (not daily driver)

So what? You want to make your car a daily driver? Then spend the big bucks for AWD. Sorry, but that's the only way you're going to prevent yourself from destroying your car. Going anymore than 300+HP on FWD is more dangerous than RWD (mostly because you'll probably take a turn, accidentally get into the boost, and find yourself between the telephone pole and the passenger door. 'course, you'd still have that problem with RWD, because of oversteer...unless the car was balanced enough, or you made it so it would induce understeer rather than oversteer.</div>

Thanks for actually answering my question and not flaming me..
So basicly 300 is the max..
At 300 you could still drive alright couldnt you?
How do you figure how many hp = how many psi?

How do the SRT-4's and stuff drive around normal then? If these car's have so much HP I don't see them burning out and stuff..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bluetibbay)</div><div class='quotemain'>Thanks for actually answering my question and not flaming me..
So basicly 300 is the max..
At 300 you could still drive alright couldnt you?
How do you figure how many hp = how many psi?

How do the SRT-4's and stuff drive around normal then? If these car's have so much HP I don't see them burning out and stuff..</div>

Boost controllers. Most people are using EBCs...like Greddy, AEM, HKS...and there are an extremely small handful of people who are actually daily driving 450+HP SRT-4s. But daily driving to them is more like living at the track than commuting. And SRT-4s only drag...well...that's what they're good for, seeing how they're light, but their suspension is worse than a riced out Honda's.

You said when your boosted it'll be way to fast and i'll kill myself.
When Im not boosted i'll be beat by little girls on tricycles.

Well, if I can use a boost controller why cant I run at like..5psi "daily driving" which is like 20 miles a day for me.

I don't really know how psi = hp, so if 5psi is considered "a lot" then maybe run at like 3psi for daily driving?

ive heard before that each psi you run will give you about 15 more horses, but thats probally a high estimate till higher psi. even if you did this and still have capibillitys to run 300+ hp. you are gunna have to have very low compression piston. which means your car is gunna run like complete crap unless your in boost. and just running 5 psi or 3 psi on a built motor, your engine is still gunna run like crap. you can do it though, your just gunna have an extremly slugish car untill you hit boost. and when you hit boost your gunna start spinning.

I once drove an audi A4 that was a complety show car with 26 psi. i went to take off at the light, car was very slow untill about 3500 rpm, at that point the wheels started spinning. i let off the gas and put it into secod and started going agian. wheels started spining agian.

you will go through tires alot and will have very little control. if that happened on a corner i would have wreck the car. im sure over time you would learn to drive it well, but if you have that kind of money to spend im sure you can have a daily driver with another car.

Wouldn't you be able to 'middle it out' and run at a level that isn't too fast, but wont' make your engine run like crap either?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bluetibbay)</div><div class='quotemain'>Wouldn't you be able to 'middle it out' and run at a level that isn't too fast, but wont' make your engine run like crap either?</div>


if under boost possible, but you can't be under boost all the time. unless its highway driving. even then it would be hard too

Ok I think I figured it out.
Boost to whatever level you want, and only drive if you intend to race, eg driving to the track boosted.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bryce804)</div><div class='quotemain'>ive heard before that each psi you run will give you about 15 more horses, but thats probally a high estimate till higher psi. even if you did this and still have capibillitys to run 300+ hp. you are gunna have to have very low compression piston. which means your car is gunna run like complete crap unless your in boost. and just running 5 psi or 3 psi on a built motor, your engine is still gunna run like crap. you can do it though, your just gunna have an extremly slugish car untill you hit boost. and when you hit boost your gunna start spinning.

I once drove an audi A4 that was a complety show car with 26 psi. i went to take off at the light, car was very slow untill about 3500 rpm, at that point the wheels started spinning. i let off the gas and put it into secod and started going agian. wheels started spining agian.

you will go through tires alot and will have very little control. if that happened on a corner i would have wreck the car. im sure over time you would learn to drive it well, but if you have that kind of money to spend im sure you can have a daily driver with another car.</div>

Ummm...15HP / PSI is a worthless statement. That varies a lot between a 4-banger and a V8. So...wherever you heard that, erase that fallacy from your mind. It makes no sense.

However, I think you people have a vague idea, but not an exact one. I'd go over Turbochargers 101, but that's something that you should probably read into on your own. You can't expect people to hand you a silver platter everytime you ask a question. A good book to get is Corky Bell's Maximum Boost. Read up, and then ask questions. There are way too many things you guys have confused...or incorrect...it's easier if you just read a book about turbochargers and how they work.

Or...if you're than ignorant, you can find some shop to overcharge you on installation of a kit...(mostly for labor)...and basically learn absolutely nothing...and be laughed at too. For your sanity and to avoid humiliation, read the books. They're worth it.

Somthing else that I have just remembered; you know the issue with the crank tunnel leading to harmonic lash? It appears that _misaligned bores_ can do it too, except that the bore issue will lead to the conrods slowly but surely running out of true, if they don't lunch the bearings first. Was talking to a fellow at the maschine shop the other day, and I thought it'd be best to relay that information. Another issue that came up is relieving the block, essentially clearing up cast-in obstructions which cause localized oil starvation at higher than intended operational loads[you will need to know _exactly how the oil flows_ to get this done, because once you muck this up you will have inconsistant pressures throughout the galleries, and hence need a fresh block.]

Yup Mad, I did forget to include the O-ringing procedure*ack*

Other things I did not add on HP because I had amajor brainfart:

-Sump work: motorsport baffles and pickup installed, or conversion to semi-dry or dry sump[very expensive]

-Tacking of water jackets/welsh plugs

-Leakdown test of head assembly after tolerancing[extra charge for sub-assembly]

-EGR blockoff + elimination[racing purposes only, usually done with standalone install]

-Balance shaft removal[requires balancing of reciprocating assemblies]

-Sealing of balance shaft aperature[alloy insert, pressure test]

Thats about all I can think of for now I think I just had another brainfart....

I did a little math and i figured out that a tibby should make around 13.59223301 HP per lb..sound about right to everyone else...i just used a prolly bad formula....stock hp/compression ratio= hp per lb. so 140/10.3=13.59....

yeah but nobody's stock tiburon ever made 140 bhp, and of course not whp.

Found this site while researching shot peening. Has other info on engine building.

http://www.grapeaperacing.com/GrapeApeRacing/tech/