Cost Ratio Basics For Turbo Setups
03-20-2006, 05:28 AM
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I'm starting this post to share something very valuable that I learned today from my mentor that wasn't so obvious to me.
Most people (including myself) look at car tuning for the most part as buying parts and installing them on to your vehicle to improve performance. I think this is due to the relatively small number of tuning options that Hyundai owners have in the states. We buy our exhausts, intakes, etc. and we never stop to think about tuning (engine management). Then one day we get the bright idea of going turbo. The same mentality carries over and we forget or underestimate engine management. BIG mistake. We can buy the most expensive turbos, pistons, intercoolers, but if we can't manage them, none of those are worth a penny... especially when things break.
Straight from professional tuners from Korea and Japan:
For stage 1 bolt-on kits, if you spend say $3000 total for a turbo kit, 60% should be on actual hardware, 20% on installation, and 20% on TUNING. That translates to $600. The ratios can vary a little, but for the most part that's right on target. Keep in mind this is a stage 1 entry kit. Something equivalent to us would be a 200-220whp kit.
As power goes up, to say 300whp (my setup). the ratio changes to 50/20/30% If I paid a total of $4,000 I should have spent around $1000 on tuning ALONE. I actually spent $800 on engine management tuning, which at the time I though was a little steep, but now in retrospect WELL worth it. Haven't had a single problem. I just spent enough money to buy a standalone... oh wait, I don't know how to tune one. For those who go standalone, I'd advise spending at least $500-$1000 from an experienced tuner on that management system.
Why so expensive? A relative few number of shops in the world can professionally tune ecus and they've spent tens of thousands of dollars perfecting it - on EACH ecu. The researched ecu data comes at a premium. For example, my shop had to tune a 700whp supra and they ordered the data from Japan. $2000 for an email with an attachment of data.
Is this good stuff or what?
Most people (including myself) look at car tuning for the most part as buying parts and installing them on to your vehicle to improve performance. I think this is due to the relatively small number of tuning options that Hyundai owners have in the states. We buy our exhausts, intakes, etc. and we never stop to think about tuning (engine management). Then one day we get the bright idea of going turbo. The same mentality carries over and we forget or underestimate engine management. BIG mistake. We can buy the most expensive turbos, pistons, intercoolers, but if we can't manage them, none of those are worth a penny... especially when things break.
Straight from professional tuners from Korea and Japan:
For stage 1 bolt-on kits, if you spend say $3000 total for a turbo kit, 60% should be on actual hardware, 20% on installation, and 20% on TUNING. That translates to $600. The ratios can vary a little, but for the most part that's right on target. Keep in mind this is a stage 1 entry kit. Something equivalent to us would be a 200-220whp kit.
As power goes up, to say 300whp (my setup). the ratio changes to 50/20/30% If I paid a total of $4,000 I should have spent around $1000 on tuning ALONE. I actually spent $800 on engine management tuning, which at the time I though was a little steep, but now in retrospect WELL worth it. Haven't had a single problem. I just spent enough money to buy a standalone... oh wait, I don't know how to tune one. For those who go standalone, I'd advise spending at least $500-$1000 from an experienced tuner on that management system.
Why so expensive? A relative few number of shops in the world can professionally tune ecus and they've spent tens of thousands of dollars perfecting it - on EACH ecu. The researched ecu data comes at a premium. For example, my shop had to tune a 700whp supra and they ordered the data from Japan. $2000 for an email with an attachment of data.
Is this good stuff or what?
03-20-2006, 07:14 AM
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Great topic. Tell me more.
I can't completely understand how can you send me a tuned ECU from only my data that I send you.
What if my engine is not in "optimal" condition, or is a bit different than the one that came off the assembly line before it?
Can't quite get it....
PS. some pay for Porn. This IS better!! cool.gif
I can't completely understand how can you send me a tuned ECU from only my data that I send you.
What if my engine is not in "optimal" condition, or is a bit different than the one that came off the assembly line before it?
Can't quite get it....
PS. some pay for Porn. This IS better!! cool.gif
03-20-2006, 01:36 PM
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the whole tuned outta the box ecu thing is questionable....
yes you can get a good close tune by estimation based on other kits, but it will never be perfect, and real tuning is done on the car.....
if somebody paid 2k for an email attachment they should be shot, i cant imagine that one could not replicate the tune via use of a dyno for under 2k... they may have just been lazy....
yes you can get a good close tune by estimation based on other kits, but it will never be perfect, and real tuning is done on the car.....
if somebody paid 2k for an email attachment they should be shot, i cant imagine that one could not replicate the tune via use of a dyno for under 2k... they may have just been lazy....
03-20-2006, 02:09 PM
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WOW crazy paying 2k for a piece of paper.
Just wondering if anyone knows of a good tuner place either in Reno, NV or in Las Vegas, NV.
Or would a regular certifide mechanic be just as good if not how can you tell?
Just wondering if anyone knows of a good tuner place either in Reno, NV or in Las Vegas, NV.
Or would a regular certifide mechanic be just as good if not how can you tell?
03-20-2006, 03:20 PM
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Actually, not paper. Something closer to an excel spreadsheet.
Viper-
Tuning a turbo setup from Korea and sending it over is VERY challenging and you're right that it wouldn't be PERFECT. It would however be better than 95% of what dyno tuners could do with our cars in the states for the same price. The reason this is possible is because of my ecu's ability to "learn." In fact it is not learning, but rather there are MANY different maps on the ecu that adjust to engine conditions such as knocking.
The example I gave may seem a bit extreme, but actually it's quite rational. You'd consider tuning a 700whp pretty difficult, right? Well it is VERY difficult and while dyno tuning something like this, MANY things can go wrong. The supra probably has over $20,000 in engine modifications alone and if a shop chooses to tackle such a difficult tuning job, they have to essentially insure that car while they're working on it. At least that's how it works in Korea and Japan. Like in the states, there's often a hidden cost for insurance. While in college I worked for an Industrial Supply house and we dealt with a lot of ladders. If a ladder cost $100, $60 of the cost was allotted for insurance purposes. Kinda like being a doctor. I'd imagine this is quite similar in the car tuning business.
I don't always have the full picture when I'm talking with my mentor, but in this case I'm assuming that he probably received multiple maps for the purchase. The car has previously run 1000whp+ on race gas while in Japan and needed mapping for that as well so I'm assuming that was probably included... maybe not.
Viper-
Tuning a turbo setup from Korea and sending it over is VERY challenging and you're right that it wouldn't be PERFECT. It would however be better than 95% of what dyno tuners could do with our cars in the states for the same price. The reason this is possible is because of my ecu's ability to "learn." In fact it is not learning, but rather there are MANY different maps on the ecu that adjust to engine conditions such as knocking.
The example I gave may seem a bit extreme, but actually it's quite rational. You'd consider tuning a 700whp pretty difficult, right? Well it is VERY difficult and while dyno tuning something like this, MANY things can go wrong. The supra probably has over $20,000 in engine modifications alone and if a shop chooses to tackle such a difficult tuning job, they have to essentially insure that car while they're working on it. At least that's how it works in Korea and Japan. Like in the states, there's often a hidden cost for insurance. While in college I worked for an Industrial Supply house and we dealt with a lot of ladders. If a ladder cost $100, $60 of the cost was allotted for insurance purposes. Kinda like being a doctor. I'd imagine this is quite similar in the car tuning business.
I don't always have the full picture when I'm talking with my mentor, but in this case I'm assuming that he probably received multiple maps for the purchase. The car has previously run 1000whp+ on race gas while in Japan and needed mapping for that as well so I'm assuming that was probably included... maybe not.
03-20-2006, 05:43 PM
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Dude, I think the turbo ECU thing is a GREAT idea.
I suppose that is, unless you plan on changing your turbo setup often. The ECU will relearn to minor modifications you make (maybe going with an equal length manifold instead of log or something), but if you upgrade your turbo and injectors then you may have problems.
I think many will agree though that the turbo ECU gives a more accurate tune than say smt6 or emanage though, it just isn't as "dynamic" I guess..
I suppose that is, unless you plan on changing your turbo setup often. The ECU will relearn to minor modifications you make (maybe going with an equal length manifold instead of log or something), but if you upgrade your turbo and injectors then you may have problems.
I think many will agree though that the turbo ECU gives a more accurate tune than say smt6 or emanage though, it just isn't as "dynamic" I guess..