2.7l Delta V6
07-21-2005, 11:08 PM
#22
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that is why it all hinges on the fiat... the Beauty of the Miata (and the RX series) they have a backbone intergrated into the drivetrain. The rear diff and the transmission are bolted together via this backbone that stretches from the front of the car to the rear. Also, the subframes of the miata unbolt from the car, taking the entire suspension with it.
I think the hardest parts will be modifing the "tunnel" in the tib to handle the backbone and the driveshaft, finding a new home for the gas tank, and somehow mating the delta engine to the Miata's six speed tranny
I think the hardest parts will be modifing the "tunnel" in the tib to handle the backbone and the driveshaft, finding a new home for the gas tank, and somehow mating the delta engine to the Miata's six speed tranny
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02-19-2024, 10:53 PM
#25
Junior Member
Since there's been some talk about V6s, I think it's time to dispell some fallacies from the truth.
What do we know? The 2.7L Delta is an aluminum V6 block, with larger bore than it's predecessor, the 2.5L. We know the 8% increase in displacement offers some more power for the aluminum block.
Weight: It weighs @ 343.1 lbs (when wet, i.e...oil is added). The Beta weighs 331.2 lbs when wet. Difference is about 11.9 lbs...approximately 12 lbs. That's why dropping in the V6 in the Tib would not be a potential weight issue. If anything, it is a potential cost issue, as there are 6 cylinders to tend to, rather than 4.
(Weight information obtained from here.)
The "V" configuration means you'll need two sets of cams...with a total of 4 camshafts rather than 2. The V6 is a 24-valve, which is 8 more valves than we have. So that means you'll need to buy 8 more valve springs, valves, etc. This is all assuming you plan on building up the block.
However, the problem with this is the block the bottom end. It's an aluminum block, and unlike iron blocks, aluminum likes to expand a lot when heat is introduced. But, many Honda engines are made out of aluminum, and with certain precautions made, you can successfully force induce an engine.
One of the age old myths we all know is about the HP limitations of the V6 Delta. This was proven by a couple of Koreans who decided to use nitrous to test the limitations of the block. Now, we all know how if you don't take certain precautions with nitrous, then you will obvious detonate the engine. Well, the test was supposedly up to 300hp, when the engine blew up, and everyone assumed that the block was limited to 300hp!
Well...if you kept a stock bottom end on the Beta, you'd be limited to about 300-400hp, with a good probability of detonation.
NGM Turbo Kit dyno'd at 385whp. This was done with a built block, lowered CR piston...oh...and this is all on an auto.
There are several methods of forced induction for the Delta, such as the Ripps SDS, Alpine S/C, NGM turbo kit, and custom turbo kits.
Now, for those of you who have heard problems with the oil leakage, blown motors, and what nots that have been associated with forced induction on the Delta, primarily with the Ripps SDS kit, it is true. Actually, the only scenarios of forced induction problems on the Delta have been primarily with the Ripps SDS.
Ripps SDS kit
Now, I don't want to slander Ripps, but if you notice the design of the drive shaft (the CNC'd aluminum enclosure right in front of the engine), notice how it's in front of the exhaust manifold. It's made out of CNC'd aluminum. Now...it's a centrifugal supercharger, meaning that the driveshaft spins the compressor (which is basically the same as the compressor on a turbo), forcing air into the intake manifold.
I am an unbiased towards the Ripps SDS, so I'm speaking out of theory behind the design (not the company). Now, the current design utilizes two sets of bearings, one on each end of the dirveshaft enclosure. Now, if driveshaft itself is not perfectly centered within the enclosure, you will load the bearing on one side of the system (engineering mechanics 101). So then your driveshaft will not be spinning on its center axis anymore; it'd be off-centered. Now, if you're trying to spin the compressor with an off-centered driveshaft, what do you get? Major shaft play in the compressor, which can cause oil leakage and eventually lead to failure of the device, and/or detonation of the engine.
As for roots blower-type S/Cs (Alpine), there are problems with the system, but I haven't heard much out of the way of detonation with people running Stage 3 kits (which is above 270+whp).
But dropping in the V6 into the RD Tibs will require some creativity and know-how. You can't expect to do this on your own if you don't have the skills (primarily welding and metal fabrication). If you were to do this yourself, you would save yourself quite a bit money...it's not unfeasible to see someone get a junked Tib for cheap, and throwing about $3k-$4k in a Delta engine, transmission, crossmember, etc (I'm sure you could go cheaper, and no, the price does not include labor prices, because you'd be doing this yourself).
Eidt: Oh, I'd wait up about a couple more months from NGM when you'll start hearing more people purchasing their products.
What do we know? The 2.7L Delta is an aluminum V6 block, with larger bore than it's predecessor, the 2.5L. We know the 8% increase in displacement offers some more power for the aluminum block.
Weight: It weighs @ 343.1 lbs (when wet, i.e...oil is added). The Beta weighs 331.2 lbs when wet. Difference is about 11.9 lbs...approximately 12 lbs. That's why dropping in the V6 in the Tib would not be a potential weight issue. If anything, it is a potential cost issue, as there are 6 cylinders to tend to, rather than 4.
(Weight information obtained from here.)
The "V" configuration means you'll need two sets of cams...with a total of 4 camshafts rather than 2. The V6 is a 24-valve, which is 8 more valves than we have. So that means you'll need to buy 8 more valve springs, valves, etc. This is all assuming you plan on building up the block.
However, the problem with this is the block the bottom end. It's an aluminum block, and unlike iron blocks, aluminum likes to expand a lot when heat is introduced. But, many Honda engines are made out of aluminum, and with certain precautions made, you can successfully force induce an engine.
One of the age old myths we all know is about the HP limitations of the V6 Delta. This was proven by a couple of Koreans who decided to use nitrous to test the limitations of the block. Now, we all know how if you don't take certain precautions with nitrous, then you will obvious detonate the engine. Well, the test was supposedly up to 300hp, when the engine blew up, and everyone assumed that the block was limited to 300hp!
Well...if you kept a stock bottom end on the Beta, you'd be limited to about 300-400hp, with a good probability of detonation.
NGM Turbo Kit dyno'd at 385whp. This was done with a built block, lowered CR piston...oh...and this is all on an auto.
There are several methods of forced induction for the Delta, such as the Ripps SDS, Alpine S/C, NGM turbo kit, and custom turbo kits.
Now, for those of you who have heard problems with the oil leakage, blown motors, and what nots that have been associated with forced induction on the Delta, primarily with the Ripps SDS kit, it is true. Actually, the only scenarios of forced induction problems on the Delta have been primarily with the Ripps SDS.
Ripps SDS kit
Now, I don't want to slander Ripps, but if you notice the design of the drive shaft (the CNC'd aluminum enclosure right in front of the engine), notice how it's in front of the exhaust manifold. It's made out of CNC'd aluminum. Now...it's a centrifugal supercharger, meaning that the driveshaft spins the compressor (which is basically the same as the compressor on a turbo), forcing air into the intake manifold.
I am an unbiased towards the Ripps SDS, so I'm speaking out of theory behind the design (not the company). Now, the current design utilizes two sets of bearings, one on each end of the dirveshaft enclosure. Now, if driveshaft itself is not perfectly centered within the enclosure, you will load the bearing on one side of the system (engineering mechanics 101). So then your driveshaft will not be spinning on its center axis anymore; it'd be off-centered. Now, if you're trying to spin the compressor with an off-centered driveshaft, what do you get? Major shaft play in the compressor, which can cause oil leakage and eventually lead to failure of the device, and/or detonation of the engine.
As for roots blower-type S/Cs (Alpine), there are problems with the system, but I haven't heard much out of the way of detonation with people running Stage 3 kits (which is above 270+whp).
But dropping in the V6 into the RD Tibs will require some creativity and know-how. You can't expect to do this on your own if you don't have the skills (primarily welding and metal fabrication). If you were to do this yourself, you would save yourself quite a bit money...it's not unfeasible to see someone get a junked Tib for cheap, and throwing about $3k-$4k in a Delta engine, transmission, crossmember, etc (I'm sure you could go cheaper, and no, the price does not include labor prices, because you'd be doing this yourself).
Eidt: Oh, I'd wait up about a couple more months from NGM when you'll start hearing more people purchasing their products.
That being said I very badly want one.