Arctic Seraph

Since there's been some talk about V6s, I think it's time to dispell some fallacies from the truth.

What do we know? The 2.7L Delta is an aluminum V6 block, with larger bore than it's predecessor, the 2.5L. We know the 8% increase in displacement offers some more power for the aluminum block.

Weight: It weighs @ 343.1 lbs (when wet, i.e...oil is added). The Beta weighs 331.2 lbs when wet. Difference is about 11.9 lbs...approximately 12 lbs. That's why dropping in the V6 in the Tib would not be a potential weight issue. If anything, it is a potential cost issue, as there are 6 cylinders to tend to, rather than 4.

(Weight information obtained from here.)

The "V" configuration means you'll need two sets of cams...with a total of 4 camshafts rather than 2. The V6 is a 24-valve, which is 8 more valves than we have. So that means you'll need to buy 8 more valve springs, valves, etc. This is all assuming you plan on building up the block.

However, the problem with this is the block the bottom end. It's an aluminum block, and unlike iron blocks, aluminum likes to expand a lot when heat is introduced. But, many Honda engines are made out of aluminum, and with certain precautions made, you can successfully force induce an engine.

One of the age old myths we all know is about the HP limitations of the V6 Delta. This was proven by a couple of Koreans who decided to use nitrous to test the limitations of the block. Now, we all know how if you don't take certain precautions with nitrous, then you will obvious detonate the engine. Well, the test was supposedly up to 300hp, when the engine blew up, and everyone assumed that the block was limited to 300hp!

Well...if you kept a stock bottom end on the Beta, you'd be limited to about 300-400hp, with a good probability of detonation.

NGM Turbo Kit dyno'd at 385whp. This was done with a built block, lowered CR piston...oh...and this is all on an auto.

There are several methods of forced induction for the Delta, such as the Ripps SDS, Alpine S/C, NGM turbo kit, and custom turbo kits.

Now, for those of you who have heard problems with the oil leakage, blown motors, and what nots that have been associated with forced induction on the Delta, primarily with the Ripps SDS kit, it is true. Actually, the only scenarios of forced induction problems on the Delta have been primarily with the Ripps SDS.

Ripps SDS kit

Now, I don't want to slander Ripps, but if you notice the design of the drive shaft (the CNC'd aluminum enclosure right in front of the engine), notice how it's in front of the exhaust manifold. It's made out of CNC'd aluminum. Now...it's a centrifugal supercharger, meaning that the driveshaft spins the compressor (which is basically the same as the compressor on a turbo), forcing air into the intake manifold.

I am an unbiased towards the Ripps SDS, so I'm speaking out of theory behind the design (not the company). Now, the current design utilizes two sets of bearings, one on each end of the dirveshaft enclosure. Now, if driveshaft itself is not perfectly centered within the enclosure, you will load the bearing on one side of the system (engineering mechanics 101). So then your driveshaft will not be spinning on its center axis anymore; it'd be off-centered. Now, if you're trying to spin the compressor with an off-centered driveshaft, what do you get? Major shaft play in the compressor, which can cause oil leakage and eventually lead to failure of the device, and/or detonation of the engine.

As for roots blower-type S/Cs (Alpine), there are problems with the system, but I haven't heard much out of the way of detonation with people running Stage 3 kits (which is above 270+whp).

But dropping in the V6 into the RD Tibs will require some creativity and know-how. You can't expect to do this on your own if you don't have the skills (primarily welding and metal fabrication). If you were to do this yourself, you would save yourself quite a bit money...it's not unfeasible to see someone get a junked Tib for cheap, and throwing about $3k-$4k in a Delta engine, transmission, crossmember, etc (I'm sure you could go cheaper, and no, the price does not include labor prices, because you'd be doing this yourself).

Eidt: Oh, I'd wait up about a couple more months from NGM when you'll start hearing more people purchasing their products.

faithofadragon

well i have this to say

ive seen 1000 hp betas

ive seen 385 deltas

i still say the beta rocks all over the delta

if ya like the delta

install it into your car and test it

Viper

Beta has been around much longer then the delta.
Plus the fact the delta is a full alu block, so I think it will never get the max power the beta would push.

In my opinion both engine's are nicely build and both are good for tuning and boosting fing02.gif

JonGTR

That writeup says that the blown Deltas come from the SDS. There are several blown motors from the Alpine. Do a search on NT.com

A good friend and cruising buddy of mine had to junk his stock Tib because it shattered several rods and threw one out the block. Hyundai wouldn't warranty it and he was forced to leave it there for salvage because he couldn't afford the $1k+ to fix the POS. Now he has to pay off the loan and is driving a used car, which is NOT a Tib. mad.gif

Now who has seen rods being thrown through blocks, or ANY kind of major damage to a Beta, n/a or f/i?


Here's a fact: You buying a reliable Delta is like flipping a coin. Some work and hold power, some can't hold the stock power.

Arctic Seraph

Jon, you frequently visit the NT boards. You must know Tim from TC and how he's been helping Alpine guys with their problems.

Only a small handful (uncompared to a certain SDS) that have blown engines with the Alpine, as from what I've heard, it was from wrong pulley sizes, and n00bs who don't know how to install the kit.

I think what most guys don't realize is that it's better to do more work (which involves more money) for a machine shop to bulletproof their engine. That's one of the biggest drawbacks here with the V6 aluminum block. There are some lucky people who can get by with the stock block...but like Jon said...it's a 50/50 chances with the Deltas.

However, let's not be blinded by the real facts. When the Delta does work under the load of F/I, it works fine. Just like a Beta. Of course, the probability of having it work is something different all together, but increasing that probability can be easily done through bulletproofing and blueprinting the block to it's original specs.

As far as I can see...one company on NT has not overlooked building up the block, and that's NGM (Next Gen Motorsports). Of course, buying the built block will cost an arm and a leg (about $4k+). But once you hit past the threshold of 300+whp, it's sort of pointless anyway on any FWD (yet, there are those who use EBCs to control and vary their psi to produce reasonable boost pressures and power).

Viper

I think the fact that the V6 is full alu and the beta has a iron bottom, which I think is better for boosting and high temperatures.

1stGenTib

Why is having over 300 HP pointless? Also wouldnt pushing it more give you more torque to get up to speed faster?

Arctic Seraph

^^Funny you should say that, since Lingenfelter Performance Engineering builds up LS1 ALUMINUM blocks, which see the forced induction from two turbos. No, not really comparing an LS1 to the Delta, but I am comparing the fact that an aluminum block shouldn't be denied the fact that it is weak in the field of forced induction.

Don't get me wrong. I think the iron block of the 4-cylinders can handle the abuse of the turbos better than aluminum blocks. It's relatively cheaper and affordable for us 4-cylinder guys to do that. V6 guys have to worry about more parts, which means more money is required to be spent in building up the engine. But make no mistake, the V6 aluminum has potential...it's just that no one can afford that potential. wink1.gif

If someone could, they wouldn't be wasting their time with a Hyundai V6 engine.

Edit: 300+whp on a FWD car. Torquesteer is a big issue for guys pushing that kind of power (LSD does help though). If you hit past 400+whp, you better have AWD, because if you accidentally tap the throttle around a turn, you'll wrap yourself into a tree. And as for proof...go look online for proof.

01tibby

f1 engines are aluminum.

the only thing 300+whp on a front wheel driver is good for is drag racing.

Mad-Machine

let me clarify something... the iron block of the Beta is better for the enthusisast to turbo. Other car makers have been boosting aluminum blocks for years without problem. You need only look no further than the 911. Save for a few years that used a magnesium aluminum allow (really light!) 911 blocks are aluminum.. and that includes their beautiful turbo engines. They were also aircooled.. which means they run hotter than a car with a radiator.. and yet they soldiered on and on and on.. a properly cared for 911 engine can do half a million miles with only minor head work at about 200,000 to 250,000 miles.

Now, I am not saying the Delta block is as good as the 911.. I only used that as a comparision. Building up the engine properly, with everything lightened, balanced, and basically "blue printed" will net you a stout lowerend that should take to boost very well.