So in your opinion, what do you think happens when you die?
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1. There's really the two views - life after death, and worm food. If you believe the worm food idea and don't do anything about your salvation; if you just happen to be wrong, what then? Is eternal hell really worth that risk? On the other hand, if you live a Christian life and acknowledge God as your savior; if you just happen to be wrong and you end up as worm food, how could you be any worse off? I'd rather err on the safe side and live a Christian life rather than risk being wrong about the worm food idea.
You could do a lot of things just in case, why not fill your entire house with canned goods? It's also marginally likely that there will be some sort of mega disaster that you could be preparing for.
I also really dislike the requirements for Christianity to "work". So I can be a huge a-hole and accept Jesus as my savior and go to heaven, but if I am the nicest, most selfless, generous person to ever live but don't accept Jesus because I don't believe in all of that I would go to hell. That's just an asinine system. Even IF I did believe that was correct, I would have reservations taking part in such an incredibly unfair system. See your item #1 above. I could live, in every way like a "good Christian" except for the accepting Jesus part and go to hell. That's like throwing me in jail because I disagree with a law, even though I'm not breaking it.
2. Do a google search for NDE stories (Near Death Experiences). There are way too many stories, way too many people who have been there and back, way too much evidence for me to believe that there's nothing after death. Spend a few minutes (first time I looked it up, I was stuck for a couple hours reading those stories - way too interesting!) reading some of those stories. How can ALL those people be completely wrong?
3. Look at your Hyundai. Did it spontaneously come into being? Surely you know better. Of course it didn't! Now look in the mirror. Look at your spouse. Did it (you) spontaneously come into being? Again, surely you know better. Of course you didn't! How can we definitively say that your Hyundai didn't come into being independently, but a more complex object (you) did? 
Surely there has to be something that made you, this world, the stars, the sun, and everything, no?
Surely there has to be something that made you, this world, the stars, the sun, and everything, no?1.) Everything spontaneously happened and arranged itself this way in some natural manner over billions of years.
2.) Some magical being (which, I would also assume had to spontaneously come into existence) created everything in a week.
Neither is more plausible than the other in my eyes.
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Heaven: Nobody knows for sure. I think our brains can't be wrapped around it or we would have been given more hints.
damned/Hell: think of every good thing including the absence of negative stuff like pain/fear/hunger etc. Now take away all those good things, and combine with a healthy dose of regret because you know you had your chance to avoid it, AND you know nobody knows or cares you are where you are. Forever.
It is pretty clear from the Bible that those who do more work for God's purposes get more crowns/higher honors/better cars/whatever is cooler in Heaven. It seems pretty easy to make Hell less-horrible for people who aren't Hitler but the opposite of good is still not going to be great to experience forever.
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There is just as much evidence to support the theory of a Flying Spaghetti Monster as there is to support Christianity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_spaghetti_monster
You don't have to believe in any religion to live a good life. I would go so far as to say that Christians have preempted the "Christain Lifestyle". They did not create it, they simply choose to call being a decent human "Christian". I have never been a Christian. I have always been a decent human.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_spaghetti_monster
You don't have to believe in any religion to live a good life. I would go so far as to say that Christians have preempted the "Christain Lifestyle". They did not create it, they simply choose to call being a decent human "Christian". I have never been a Christian. I have always been a decent human.
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Two highly unlikely options:
1.) Everything spontaneously happened and arranged itself this way in some natural manner over billions of years.
2.) Some magical being (which, I would also assume had to spontaneously come into existence) created everything in a week.
Neither is more plausible than the other in my eyes.
1.) Everything spontaneously happened and arranged itself this way in some natural manner over billions of years.
2.) Some magical being (which, I would also assume had to spontaneously come into existence) created everything in a week.
Neither is more plausible than the other in my eyes.
3: We are part of someones capstone project in hyper computer simulation, and all we know is false, ala matrix, but without the floating bodies.
Makes you wonder, would we be able to tell if we were fake, in a virtual world, as virtual beings?
As far as religion, I rarely talk about it due to all the angst and uproar it usually causes, so I tend to focus on the fringe thought experiments.
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I also really dislike the requirements for Christianity to "work". So I can be a huge a-hole and accept Jesus as my savior and go to heaven, but if I am the nicest, most selfless, generous person to ever live but don't accept Jesus because I don't believe in all of that I would go to hell. That's just an asinine system.
I think the Bible focuses more on how to live than what happens afterward. Maybe there's a reason Hell wasn't mentioned in the old testament, or why Heaven after death is barely addressed in the new testament.
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Well, I tried to submit this, but apparently I had too many quotes, so my responses are in bold
I am not saying you are right and I am wrong or via vera, but I do think using the argument "How can all those people be wrong" is invalid. Agreeance doens't make somethnig true. All the world believed the sun rotated around the world and they weren't right. They weren't lying either, they thought they were right. Just like I tink NDE stories all all similar as we are all humans, our brains do teh same things, much like when scared, we sweat, our heart rate goes up ect. When dying, maybe we see lights and have pleasant dreams ect? I think if you believe in heaven and know how amazing it is, and really experienced it, you would never be able to go back to earth.
If somebody is a devout ....Christian, for example, and genuenely believe in the Bible and God and the whole thing, are they even eligable to enter heaven? Not always. The one condition that allows one entrence to heaven according to the Bible is realizing they are a sinner, and asking Jesus to forgive them of those sins. You can donate all your money to the poor, go to church every sunday, be a preacher, and you still could go to hell. Same with a Muslim. The problem with many Christans and Muslims is that it is a religious thing, they follow traditions of man, rather than have faith in God. Muslims actually belive in the same God. I don't subscribe to the notion that the one Christian God of the Bible is the only God and the Bible is required for salvation. The Bible is a God inspired book, and instruction manual of sorts to the human who was created by God. It will help you to live a fullfilling life, but isn't required for salvation. God is the creator of everything, he is the provider of everything, I believe if you seek that God, the truth will be revealed to you. I would tell a Muslim I will forget about my Bible and the teachings of my religious folk and you do the same, just earnestly seek the one true God who created everything and is made know in so many ways in our daily lives. I have absolute faith that God will reveal the truth to them, and that Jesus is the only way and the Bible is His book to guide us in life. So I do believe the God of the Bible is the only God, but that is more of a coincidence, than it is curuclar logic. So many believe God is the only God because the Bible says so, and they believe the Bible is what God says, and it is meaningless circular logic and shows a lack of faith in the one true God who they can see on a daily basis.
This is why you can have people from 3rd world countries who never heard of God or the Bible or church can absolutly go to heaven. Sometimes God reaveals Himself through missionaries that go to tell them, but sometimes God could reveal this truth to them Himself.
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world Gods invisible qualitieshis eternal power and divine naturehave been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
God says in many verses, seek and you will find, He is knockinf on the door and all you have to do is answer it. But too many peoples thoughts are clouded with religious traditions of man and how some guy enturprets their holy book and completly forget about God and can't even see Him in their everyday lives.
A true muslim who knows the Qu'ran well and is truely blessed by Allah, isn't hard to convert to Christianity, their holy book points to Jesus so many times, all you have to do is put the puzzles pieces from thier own book together to show them. Allah is just a translation and way of saying God, actuall it is more correct than God, which comes from the pegan diety "Gott". Alah is closer to God's name but God has become known as a common reference to the Christian God. I use it not to complicate people, but I don't like to compartmentalize God into the Bible and Christianity only, God is the creator of all, He is certianly not confined to a few pages and a building.
God doesn't damn anyone to hell. The wages of sin is death. If you eat a bigmac, you are charged $4, if you sin your 'fine' is eternal death. The big difference being is that we are all born sinners, it is our nature. This is why He loves us so much, though we are all damned to hell, He wanted to save us and send His Son to die for us. God saves, He doesn't damn, sin damns.
I agree completly with that and am glad you said it. I can't prove God's exsistance anymore that you can prove the Big Bang, both are highly statistaically unlikely, and both require faith to belive it.
Actually Christians were first called that as a dirogitory term, it meant "follower/disciple of Christ". The jew had their own beliefs and only a few 'weird' people followed this Christ, and we call them Chrsitians. Christianity doesn't mean living a good life, it means following Christ, whoma gain said the 2 greatest commandments are loving the Lord you God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and loving your neighbor as yourself. And He also said no one comes to the Father except through Him.
The only people that Jesus ever yelled at, was the supposed religious folks of that day. He cracked a whip at them and scalded them for turning a place of worship into a robbers den. But Jesus did eat on many occasions with prostitutes and tax payers (the white collar theifs of His time). Being the creator of Humans, He knows how they work, yelling at someone and spouting out Bible verses and acting better than them will not help anyone, you catch more bees with honey. Jesus related with people, and meet their needs, and offered them the truth. If they wanted it, excellent, if not, He moved on. Living His life as an example, many came to Him seeking the truth and He was more than happy to help them and tell them about it and met their physical and spiritual needs. So you can't be a good Christian without Christ by defination.
Sure you could be a decent human, but why, what is the purpose? Is it to help yourself and make your life better (selfish only giving the illusion of being nice but it is really to help youself)? Or is it is helpe everyone else and be a servant to them all. And if you are such a good person, what made you this way or allowed it? Was it God? Or yourself...once again making you pridefull and no longer selfless at this point. Basically it comes down to two things, you think you can do it yourself and don't need anyone, or you know you can't and need God.
I am think it does mention of getting more crown jewels, and the reason you want more, is so you can cast them at Jesus's feet in thankfullness and gratitude. The last shall be first and the first shall be last. The reason you do stuff is out of love, not reward, and the reason you do stuff out of love is because Jesus first loved us, so heavenly treasure is an afterthought, and not the motivation. I think the only reasons it speaks of storing up heavenly treasures is in comparing earthly treasures, ans how moth and rust and fire will destroy making it all worless, and heavenly treasures last forever, but it is more to give you an eternal focus, not really to get you to 'try' to attain the most heavenly treasures, but to focus you mind on God and not earthly things which are all temporary.
And as Jesis says, place yourself at the bottom (lowest honor) of the table and when people see you their they will uplift you and say in front of everyone, come up here and sit at the head seat. but if you sit at the head head, they will say, um...what are you doing up here, go well down to the end, and you will look pridefull and a fool in front of everyone.
I would also like ot thank everyone for having the maturity to keep this type of 'contraversial' subject matter civil and respectfull.
Here's a couple things to think about:
1. There's really the two views - life after death, and worm food. If you believe the worm food idea and don't do anything about your salvation; if you just happen to be wrong, what then? Is eternal hell really worth that risk? On the other hand, if you live a Christian life and acknowledge God as your savior; if you just happen to be wrong and you end up as worm food, how could you be any worse off? I'd rather err on the safe side and live a Christian life rather than risk being wrong about the worm food idea.
This is known as Pascal's Gambit/wager http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
2. Do a google search for NDE stories (Near Death Experiences). There are way too many stories, way too many people who have been there and back, way too much evidence for me to believe that there's nothing after death. Spend a few minutes (first time I looked it up, I was stuck for a couple hours reading those stories - way too interesting!) reading some of those stories. How can ALL those people be completely wrong?
1. There's really the two views - life after death, and worm food. If you believe the worm food idea and don't do anything about your salvation; if you just happen to be wrong, what then? Is eternal hell really worth that risk? On the other hand, if you live a Christian life and acknowledge God as your savior; if you just happen to be wrong and you end up as worm food, how could you be any worse off? I'd rather err on the safe side and live a Christian life rather than risk being wrong about the worm food idea.
This is known as Pascal's Gambit/wager http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
2. Do a google search for NDE stories (Near Death Experiences). There are way too many stories, way too many people who have been there and back, way too much evidence for me to believe that there's nothing after death. Spend a few minutes (first time I looked it up, I was stuck for a couple hours reading those stories - way too interesting!) reading some of those stories. How can ALL those people be completely wrong?
I am not saying you are right and I am wrong or via vera, but I do think using the argument "How can all those people be wrong" is invalid. Agreeance doens't make somethnig true. All the world believed the sun rotated around the world and they weren't right. They weren't lying either, they thought they were right. Just like I tink NDE stories all all similar as we are all humans, our brains do teh same things, much like when scared, we sweat, our heart rate goes up ect. When dying, maybe we see lights and have pleasant dreams ect? I think if you believe in heaven and know how amazing it is, and really experienced it, you would never be able to go back to earth.
I just look at all the times I could have died doing something dumb. I didn't feel an ethereal hand guiding me, nor did I have life flashing before my eyes, just a pretty big rush of adrenaline and shaky hands afterwards. Did I miss that power pole by a foot because that's just where I was driving? Or was it all in God's plan for the power pole to be placed there by manipulating the optimum cable layout when it was built? If it was His plan for me to live, why make (or allow...) me drive like an idiot in the first place? My mind can go on and on and not really find an answer.
I will try not to bore you too much, but it is kind of a long story, I would recommend you read it for yourself, it is a cool story, but I will do my best to summarize it. Genesis chapters 37-50. Basically the youngest son (Joseph) makes the other jelous, they sell him to slavery. This was an obiedient and godly young man, and God blessed him and made him like the number 2 servant. A high up lady tries to take advantage of him, he says no, she calls rape and he get thrown into jail. Again he find favor and works his way up, ending up to be the #2 in command only the Pharoah above him. His brothers come to him to get food (since there was a massive famine) and he reveals himself to his brothers who apologize for what they did, he says "Genesis 50:20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives."
How much would it suck to be a boy sold to slavery, and after obeying God, he then allows you to go to prison? Some would say how unfair and rediculous is this, screw God, He is mean. Again, not seeing the big picture, Joseph had faith in God and didn't worry about the current circumstances nor did he use human logic to 'invalidate' God's goodness. If you ahve faith God is good, that is just a fact and anything that happens, is good, you just might not see it. So being a fact, nothnig can change it, not circumstances or events or anything. This 'unfair' journey he ended up going through saved probably half of Europe from this massive famine, and it is what brought the jews to Egypt and started having kids and then the story of Moses comes about....which I am sure also seems unfair, but this lead to God's glory and power being displayed to Egypt making a mockery of their god's with the plagues and leading to the ten commantments and bringing the jews to the promised land and eventually the jew rebelling and Jesus coming to save all man.
Another example, your kid is running across the stree without looking both ways, so you spank them, or ground them or punish them right? Not because you hate them, but because you love them and don't want to see them hurt. You having much more wisdom than your kids know how pain is a bilogical strong human response, and you know next time your kid decides to cross the sreet, they will think ouch, and oh yea, I have to look both ways, don't want that pain. Now at the time of punishment, your kid hates you, thinks you are mean and unfair, they have a simple/narrow mind, they can't see the big picture, but you can.
Much like with God, I can't even begin to attempt to comprehend His ways, I am just a feeble dumb kid, but I know He loves me and wants what is best for me, even if something seems unfair or painful and doesn't make sense to my feeble mind who can't see the big picture.
A recent example is me blowing my engine and spending way too much money to fix it since I was away from home. I could get mad at God and say, I tithe and go to Church, God is mean and unfair. Though I know God has a plan for me, and I was able to use this oportunity to share my beliefs and with another enthusiast who was willing to help me and it is also possible that God knowing this guy knows his sutff was brought into my life to fix this issue and be as nice to me as he has been. I might have been given a glipmse of the big picture, maybe not, all I know is that God is good and I will continue to attempt to do His will and please Him regardless of my cicrumstances. And if that is something that is seen by someone else and they ask me for the reason I believe in what I believe, and I tell them and then are converted, that is awesome! I would pay a million dollars if I could to convert 1 person. Though I know I am not in control but God is, and He is the one that saves and I am just a tool He can use, and live my life the best I can to please Him and to show others His light through me so they can see Him.
Anyway. Hoardes of people die every day, and it doesn't seem to matter whether or not they are righteous or evil. Most of them probably died in shitty circumstances too. I don't think it is fair and loving for any living creature to burn to death, or die slowly over many years due to brain cancer...
Again see above, you are using your human mind to try in interpret God's divinity and will. I understand where you are coming from if you don't believe in God, but just to let you know where Christians are comming from when they say God is good even though these things may happen.
A few things that have interested me but I haven't been able to ask:
-If somebody is considered evil, (lets say Muammar Gaddafi - I know he's a muslim but just pretend he is christian for now) do they get a chance to redeem themselves before God? What if somebody initiates a crusade, for example? If they believe they are acting under God's will, but are actually committing a huge evil, what happens? Are they admitted into heaven? Back to Muammar, he committed some terrible atrocities, but I doubt he thought he was evil inside his own head. Would he be able to gain redemption and enter heaven?
Let me ask you this, if there is a 10 carot diamond and it has a tiny peice of dirt on it that can be easily cleaned by the right jeweler, do you want it? What about if it has a LOT of dir ton it, but can still be cleaned, do you still want it? What if it has a tone of dirt and stuff and noone has the tools too clean it and it is effevtivly worthless (the only reason you know it is a daimond is from microspocic examination and test) it looks just like a rock of dirt. Do you want it?
This guy (God) is the finding this diamond (US), and sees dirt on it (sin). Their is only one jeweler (Jesus) who has the skills/tools to clean it. This person can only accept a clean diamond. So this seems 'unfair and wrong'? Well, it is no longer unfair and wrong because this man had a son, his only son, whom he allowed man to ridicule and eventually crucify, but knowing this would give him the ability to be able to fix/clean every diamond out there no matter how dirty or cracked or regarless of the defficiancy. Not only this, be he is offering this service for free to anyone and everyone that wants to accept it.
So Muammar is a really dirty diamond, but God still loves Him and whishes he would allow Jesus to clean him, and He would accept him.
-What of people who are completely insane, mentally retarded, or are in a coma? If somebody is born with downs syndrome, will their soul also have downs syndrome? Or has their soul simply entered a shitty body... are they being punished/reincarnated? What about somebody who is a severe autist? Does that comprise their actual soul, or is there a good soul in there trying to function? Are they then to be held accountable for their actions before God?
I do believe God is just and merciful, whatever He deems with be good. I don't have all the answers though and I can't say with any certainty of what happens to folks like that, I just have faith in my good God.
-If somebody is a devout... Muslim, for example, and genuinely believe in the Qu'ran and Allah and the whole thing, are they even eligble to enter heaven?Considering that they would technically be worshipping a false god, but in their mind they are legit. Damnation for them?
I will try not to bore you too much, but it is kind of a long story, I would recommend you read it for yourself, it is a cool story, but I will do my best to summarize it. Genesis chapters 37-50. Basically the youngest son (Joseph) makes the other jelous, they sell him to slavery. This was an obiedient and godly young man, and God blessed him and made him like the number 2 servant. A high up lady tries to take advantage of him, he says no, she calls rape and he get thrown into jail. Again he find favor and works his way up, ending up to be the #2 in command only the Pharoah above him. His brothers come to him to get food (since there was a massive famine) and he reveals himself to his brothers who apologize for what they did, he says "Genesis 50:20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives."
How much would it suck to be a boy sold to slavery, and after obeying God, he then allows you to go to prison? Some would say how unfair and rediculous is this, screw God, He is mean. Again, not seeing the big picture, Joseph had faith in God and didn't worry about the current circumstances nor did he use human logic to 'invalidate' God's goodness. If you ahve faith God is good, that is just a fact and anything that happens, is good, you just might not see it. So being a fact, nothnig can change it, not circumstances or events or anything. This 'unfair' journey he ended up going through saved probably half of Europe from this massive famine, and it is what brought the jews to Egypt and started having kids and then the story of Moses comes about....which I am sure also seems unfair, but this lead to God's glory and power being displayed to Egypt making a mockery of their god's with the plagues and leading to the ten commantments and bringing the jews to the promised land and eventually the jew rebelling and Jesus coming to save all man.
Another example, your kid is running across the stree without looking both ways, so you spank them, or ground them or punish them right? Not because you hate them, but because you love them and don't want to see them hurt. You having much more wisdom than your kids know how pain is a bilogical strong human response, and you know next time your kid decides to cross the sreet, they will think ouch, and oh yea, I have to look both ways, don't want that pain. Now at the time of punishment, your kid hates you, thinks you are mean and unfair, they have a simple/narrow mind, they can't see the big picture, but you can.
Much like with God, I can't even begin to attempt to comprehend His ways, I am just a feeble dumb kid, but I know He loves me and wants what is best for me, even if something seems unfair or painful and doesn't make sense to my feeble mind who can't see the big picture.
A recent example is me blowing my engine and spending way too much money to fix it since I was away from home. I could get mad at God and say, I tithe and go to Church, God is mean and unfair. Though I know God has a plan for me, and I was able to use this oportunity to share my beliefs and with another enthusiast who was willing to help me and it is also possible that God knowing this guy knows his sutff was brought into my life to fix this issue and be as nice to me as he has been. I might have been given a glipmse of the big picture, maybe not, all I know is that God is good and I will continue to attempt to do His will and please Him regardless of my cicrumstances. And if that is something that is seen by someone else and they ask me for the reason I believe in what I believe, and I tell them and then are converted, that is awesome! I would pay a million dollars if I could to convert 1 person. Though I know I am not in control but God is, and He is the one that saves and I am just a tool He can use, and live my life the best I can to please Him and to show others His light through me so they can see Him.
Anyway. Hoardes of people die every day, and it doesn't seem to matter whether or not they are righteous or evil. Most of them probably died in shitty circumstances too. I don't think it is fair and loving for any living creature to burn to death, or die slowly over many years due to brain cancer...
Again see above, you are using your human mind to try in interpret God's divinity and will. I understand where you are coming from if you don't believe in God, but just to let you know where Christians are comming from when they say God is good even though these things may happen.
A few things that have interested me but I haven't been able to ask:
-If somebody is considered evil, (lets say Muammar Gaddafi - I know he's a muslim but just pretend he is christian for now) do they get a chance to redeem themselves before God? What if somebody initiates a crusade, for example? If they believe they are acting under God's will, but are actually committing a huge evil, what happens? Are they admitted into heaven? Back to Muammar, he committed some terrible atrocities, but I doubt he thought he was evil inside his own head. Would he be able to gain redemption and enter heaven?
Let me ask you this, if there is a 10 carot diamond and it has a tiny peice of dirt on it that can be easily cleaned by the right jeweler, do you want it? What about if it has a LOT of dir ton it, but can still be cleaned, do you still want it? What if it has a tone of dirt and stuff and noone has the tools too clean it and it is effevtivly worthless (the only reason you know it is a daimond is from microspocic examination and test) it looks just like a rock of dirt. Do you want it?
This guy (God) is the finding this diamond (US), and sees dirt on it (sin). Their is only one jeweler (Jesus) who has the skills/tools to clean it. This person can only accept a clean diamond. So this seems 'unfair and wrong'? Well, it is no longer unfair and wrong because this man had a son, his only son, whom he allowed man to ridicule and eventually crucify, but knowing this would give him the ability to be able to fix/clean every diamond out there no matter how dirty or cracked or regarless of the defficiancy. Not only this, be he is offering this service for free to anyone and everyone that wants to accept it.
So Muammar is a really dirty diamond, but God still loves Him and whishes he would allow Jesus to clean him, and He would accept him.
-What of people who are completely insane, mentally retarded, or are in a coma? If somebody is born with downs syndrome, will their soul also have downs syndrome? Or has their soul simply entered a shitty body... are they being punished/reincarnated? What about somebody who is a severe autist? Does that comprise their actual soul, or is there a good soul in there trying to function? Are they then to be held accountable for their actions before God?
I do believe God is just and merciful, whatever He deems with be good. I don't have all the answers though and I can't say with any certainty of what happens to folks like that, I just have faith in my good God.
-If somebody is a devout... Muslim, for example, and genuinely believe in the Qu'ran and Allah and the whole thing, are they even eligble to enter heaven?Considering that they would technically be worshipping a false god, but in their mind they are legit. Damnation for them?
If somebody is a devout ....Christian, for example, and genuenely believe in the Bible and God and the whole thing, are they even eligable to enter heaven? Not always. The one condition that allows one entrence to heaven according to the Bible is realizing they are a sinner, and asking Jesus to forgive them of those sins. You can donate all your money to the poor, go to church every sunday, be a preacher, and you still could go to hell. Same with a Muslim. The problem with many Christans and Muslims is that it is a religious thing, they follow traditions of man, rather than have faith in God. Muslims actually belive in the same God. I don't subscribe to the notion that the one Christian God of the Bible is the only God and the Bible is required for salvation. The Bible is a God inspired book, and instruction manual of sorts to the human who was created by God. It will help you to live a fullfilling life, but isn't required for salvation. God is the creator of everything, he is the provider of everything, I believe if you seek that God, the truth will be revealed to you. I would tell a Muslim I will forget about my Bible and the teachings of my religious folk and you do the same, just earnestly seek the one true God who created everything and is made know in so many ways in our daily lives. I have absolute faith that God will reveal the truth to them, and that Jesus is the only way and the Bible is His book to guide us in life. So I do believe the God of the Bible is the only God, but that is more of a coincidence, than it is curuclar logic. So many believe God is the only God because the Bible says so, and they believe the Bible is what God says, and it is meaningless circular logic and shows a lack of faith in the one true God who they can see on a daily basis.
This is why you can have people from 3rd world countries who never heard of God or the Bible or church can absolutly go to heaven. Sometimes God reaveals Himself through missionaries that go to tell them, but sometimes God could reveal this truth to them Himself.
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world Gods invisible qualitieshis eternal power and divine naturehave been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
God says in many verses, seek and you will find, He is knockinf on the door and all you have to do is answer it. But too many peoples thoughts are clouded with religious traditions of man and how some guy enturprets their holy book and completly forget about God and can't even see Him in their everyday lives.
A true muslim who knows the Qu'ran well and is truely blessed by Allah, isn't hard to convert to Christianity, their holy book points to Jesus so many times, all you have to do is put the puzzles pieces from thier own book together to show them. Allah is just a translation and way of saying God, actuall it is more correct than God, which comes from the pegan diety "Gott". Alah is closer to God's name but God has become known as a common reference to the Christian God. I use it not to complicate people, but I don't like to compartmentalize God into the Bible and Christianity only, God is the creator of all, He is certianly not confined to a few pages and a building.
God doesn't damn anyone to hell. The wages of sin is death. If you eat a bigmac, you are charged $4, if you sin your 'fine' is eternal death. The big difference being is that we are all born sinners, it is our nature. This is why He loves us so much, though we are all damned to hell, He wanted to save us and send His Son to die for us. God saves, He doesn't damn, sin damns.
I also really dislike the requirements for Christianity to "work". So I can be a huge a-hole and accept Jesus as my savior and go to heaven,
What do you think the requirements are? Who told you these requirements? What does the Bible say about these requirements? There is one requirement, as said above (and this goes for anything I said if you want a Bible verse to back it up jsut let me know but I am trying to keep it somewhat short lol) and that requirement is realization of sin, and asking for forgiveness of that sin, thats it! Knowing that God loves me so much and what He did for me, causes me to love Him back. What is love? There are various types of love according to the greeks, agape, eros, philia and storge. Agape is sacrificial love. A sacrifice is by definition, something that suck, something you don't want to do, giving something up that you need/want. God demonstrated this by sacrficing His Son. I do this to God by attempting to honor Him by being obedient to His laws. I also believe His laws are pretty logical and will help me live a prosperous life, but Jesus said the two greatest commandments are Love the Lord your God with all your heart,mind and soul, and the second is to love you neighbor as yourself. I am not required to do anything, Jesus was a free gift to me with no strings attached, and being so, I want to attempt to (though I will never be able to) pay Him back by honoring and obeying God. These are the 'works' you speak of, but done out of love, not compulsion.
You can be a huge A-hole and go to heaven......but if you really truely understand what God did for you and accepted this gift, it is almost impossible to live an A-hole life, so one would genreally question ones heart behind that descision. That being said we are still stuck in human bodies, and though our spirit is reborn new again and we want to please God, we don't always do. This is also why the Bible is there to help, an Church is also there to help and keep you accountable. Just as a baby can't walk or run a marothon or eat steak, a new Christian might not be a mother Theresa their first day, it takes time to mature in Christ, but a true Christian will hopefully want to mature in Christ and show the world of this awesome gift they were givin.
but if I am the nicest, most selfless, generous person to ever live but don't accept Jesus because I don't believe in all of that I would go to hell. That's just an asinine system.
If you are a 2' guy, and you atttempt to dunk the 10' basketball hoop you never will by yourself. You can try all day, and some people would find it admirable, but you will never do it, period. If you allowed this ladder to be used, then it would be possible, but that would require you to eat some humble pie, acknowledge that you can't do it yourself, and ask for help. This is a hard pill to swallow for many, pride is a hard thing to deal with. I know I can't do it on my own, and require Jesus (the ladder) to dunk it (get to heaven). Is there such a true thing as selflesness? What makes you a 'nice guy'? Are you doing selfless thing to feel good about yourself? Are you being nice because you have logic and you know that it is wise to be nice to people as it makes life easier? There are many 'rules' and seeming 'killjoys' in the Bible were if you think about it, makes total logical sense to do. But is there someone out there who is truely selfless? Or is it ok as long as you are a nice guy, that you take credit for this, but then you are no longer selfless. It is also very easy to be nice to those who are nice to you, though it is tremendously hard to be nice to those who hate you, want to kill you. Though Jesus was not only nice but loving and still died for those, who were spitting on Him as he died for them! This is the most perfect example of love, which no human could ever do by themselves. And Jesus wasn't just doing this for us, but to please His Father, so it was not only loving, but completly selfless.
Even IF I did believe that was correct, I would have reservations taking part in such an incredibly unfair system. See your item #1 above. I could live, in every way like a "good Christian" except for the accepting Jesus part and go to hell. That's like throwing me in jail because I disagree with a law, even though I'm not breaking it.
That is just it though, you can't live like a "good Christan" expect for accepting Jesus. A 'good Christian' isn't an act or some works done, it is loving others and God, and doing so out of Love for God and others and attempting to please God because you are so thankfull for what Jesus did. Sure you could live a 'good live' and be a 'nice guy' just liek that midget attempting to dunk, but you will never succeed withough help.
Two highly unlikely options:
1.) Everything spontaneously happened and arranged itself this way in some natural manner over billions of years.
2.) Some magical being (which, I would also assume had to spontaneously come into existence) created everything in a week.
Neither is more plausible than the other in my eyes.
What do you think the requirements are? Who told you these requirements? What does the Bible say about these requirements? There is one requirement, as said above (and this goes for anything I said if you want a Bible verse to back it up jsut let me know but I am trying to keep it somewhat short lol) and that requirement is realization of sin, and asking for forgiveness of that sin, thats it! Knowing that God loves me so much and what He did for me, causes me to love Him back. What is love? There are various types of love according to the greeks, agape, eros, philia and storge. Agape is sacrificial love. A sacrifice is by definition, something that suck, something you don't want to do, giving something up that you need/want. God demonstrated this by sacrficing His Son. I do this to God by attempting to honor Him by being obedient to His laws. I also believe His laws are pretty logical and will help me live a prosperous life, but Jesus said the two greatest commandments are Love the Lord your God with all your heart,mind and soul, and the second is to love you neighbor as yourself. I am not required to do anything, Jesus was a free gift to me with no strings attached, and being so, I want to attempt to (though I will never be able to) pay Him back by honoring and obeying God. These are the 'works' you speak of, but done out of love, not compulsion.
You can be a huge A-hole and go to heaven......but if you really truely understand what God did for you and accepted this gift, it is almost impossible to live an A-hole life, so one would genreally question ones heart behind that descision. That being said we are still stuck in human bodies, and though our spirit is reborn new again and we want to please God, we don't always do. This is also why the Bible is there to help, an Church is also there to help and keep you accountable. Just as a baby can't walk or run a marothon or eat steak, a new Christian might not be a mother Theresa their first day, it takes time to mature in Christ, but a true Christian will hopefully want to mature in Christ and show the world of this awesome gift they were givin.
but if I am the nicest, most selfless, generous person to ever live but don't accept Jesus because I don't believe in all of that I would go to hell. That's just an asinine system.
If you are a 2' guy, and you atttempt to dunk the 10' basketball hoop you never will by yourself. You can try all day, and some people would find it admirable, but you will never do it, period. If you allowed this ladder to be used, then it would be possible, but that would require you to eat some humble pie, acknowledge that you can't do it yourself, and ask for help. This is a hard pill to swallow for many, pride is a hard thing to deal with. I know I can't do it on my own, and require Jesus (the ladder) to dunk it (get to heaven). Is there such a true thing as selflesness? What makes you a 'nice guy'? Are you doing selfless thing to feel good about yourself? Are you being nice because you have logic and you know that it is wise to be nice to people as it makes life easier? There are many 'rules' and seeming 'killjoys' in the Bible were if you think about it, makes total logical sense to do. But is there someone out there who is truely selfless? Or is it ok as long as you are a nice guy, that you take credit for this, but then you are no longer selfless. It is also very easy to be nice to those who are nice to you, though it is tremendously hard to be nice to those who hate you, want to kill you. Though Jesus was not only nice but loving and still died for those, who were spitting on Him as he died for them! This is the most perfect example of love, which no human could ever do by themselves. And Jesus wasn't just doing this for us, but to please His Father, so it was not only loving, but completly selfless.
Even IF I did believe that was correct, I would have reservations taking part in such an incredibly unfair system. See your item #1 above. I could live, in every way like a "good Christian" except for the accepting Jesus part and go to hell. That's like throwing me in jail because I disagree with a law, even though I'm not breaking it.
That is just it though, you can't live like a "good Christan" expect for accepting Jesus. A 'good Christian' isn't an act or some works done, it is loving others and God, and doing so out of Love for God and others and attempting to please God because you are so thankfull for what Jesus did. Sure you could live a 'good live' and be a 'nice guy' just liek that midget attempting to dunk, but you will never succeed withough help.
Two highly unlikely options:
1.) Everything spontaneously happened and arranged itself this way in some natural manner over billions of years.
2.) Some magical being (which, I would also assume had to spontaneously come into existence) created everything in a week.
Neither is more plausible than the other in my eyes.
I agree completly with that and am glad you said it. I can't prove God's exsistance anymore that you can prove the Big Bang, both are highly statistaically unlikely, and both require faith to belive it.
There is just as much evidence to support the theory of a Flying Spaghetti Monster as there is to support Christianity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_spaghetti_monster
Yup, I agree with you there too. But I don't live based on proof, I live/walk by faith and not by sight.
You don't have to believe in any religion to live a good life. I would go so far as to say that Christians have preempted the "Christain Lifestyle". They did not create it, they simply choose to call being a decent human "Christian". I have never been a Christian. I have always been a decent human.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_spaghetti_monster
Yup, I agree with you there too. But I don't live based on proof, I live/walk by faith and not by sight.
You don't have to believe in any religion to live a good life. I would go so far as to say that Christians have preempted the "Christain Lifestyle". They did not create it, they simply choose to call being a decent human "Christian". I have never been a Christian. I have always been a decent human.
Actually Christians were first called that as a dirogitory term, it meant "follower/disciple of Christ". The jew had their own beliefs and only a few 'weird' people followed this Christ, and we call them Chrsitians. Christianity doesn't mean living a good life, it means following Christ, whoma gain said the 2 greatest commandments are loving the Lord you God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and loving your neighbor as yourself. And He also said no one comes to the Father except through Him.
The only people that Jesus ever yelled at, was the supposed religious folks of that day. He cracked a whip at them and scalded them for turning a place of worship into a robbers den. But Jesus did eat on many occasions with prostitutes and tax payers (the white collar theifs of His time). Being the creator of Humans, He knows how they work, yelling at someone and spouting out Bible verses and acting better than them will not help anyone, you catch more bees with honey. Jesus related with people, and meet their needs, and offered them the truth. If they wanted it, excellent, if not, He moved on. Living His life as an example, many came to Him seeking the truth and He was more than happy to help them and tell them about it and met their physical and spiritual needs. So you can't be a good Christian without Christ by defination.
Sure you could be a decent human, but why, what is the purpose? Is it to help yourself and make your life better (selfish only giving the illusion of being nice but it is really to help youself)? Or is it is helpe everyone else and be a servant to them all. And if you are such a good person, what made you this way or allowed it? Was it God? Or yourself...once again making you pridefull and no longer selfless at this point. Basically it comes down to two things, you think you can do it yourself and don't need anyone, or you know you can't and need God.
I disagree. I don't think the Bible is clear about that at all, or that it remotely suggests that. Are you referring to the "more jewels in your crown" thing? Or the "mansions" in Heaven (which is more appropriately translated as dwelling places in other versions)?
I think the Bible focuses more on how to live than what happens afterward. Maybe there's a reason Hell wasn't mentioned in the old testament, or why Heaven after death is barely addressed in the new testament.
I think the Bible focuses more on how to live than what happens afterward. Maybe there's a reason Hell wasn't mentioned in the old testament, or why Heaven after death is barely addressed in the new testament.
And as Jesis says, place yourself at the bottom (lowest honor) of the table and when people see you their they will uplift you and say in front of everyone, come up here and sit at the head seat. but if you sit at the head head, they will say, um...what are you doing up here, go well down to the end, and you will look pridefull and a fool in front of everyone.
I would also like ot thank everyone for having the maturity to keep this type of 'contraversial' subject matter civil and respectfull.
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Originally Posted by majik
To address a few of wheel_of_steel's thoughts and my own personal beliefs...
I don't find God to be unreasonable or quick to damn people. For people who are mentally ill, insane, or otherwise unable to act on their own, I find them to be innocent as a young child would. To what extent can you hold a 2 year old accountable for their actions, and not their parents? Likewise, a tribe of people in an African wilderness won't know the name "Jesus" or "God" apart from anything else. Are they "eternally damned" (whatever that means) for not having a Bible or not knowing who Jesus is?
I don't find God to be unreasonable or quick to damn people. For people who are mentally ill, insane, or otherwise unable to act on their own, I find them to be innocent as a young child would. To what extent can you hold a 2 year old accountable for their actions, and not their parents? Likewise, a tribe of people in an African wilderness won't know the name "Jesus" or "God" apart from anything else. Are they "eternally damned" (whatever that means) for not having a Bible or not knowing who Jesus is?
Originally Posted by Whatnot
God doesn't damn anyone to hell. The wages of sin is death. If you eat a bigmac, you are charged $4, if you sin your 'fine' is eternal death. The big difference being is that we are all born sinners, it is our nature. This is why He loves us so much, though we are all damned to hell, He wanted to save us and send His Son to die for us. God saves, He doesn't damn, sin damns.
Let's call it hell, or even absence from God. Whatever you want to call it, my original statement still stands.
the whole jewels things and treasures in Heaven is focused on destroying the loyalty to earthly possessions rather than any receipt of rewards in Heaven. I searched for jewel, crown, treasure, and couldn't find much suggesting that some will get greater 'reward' than others. Regardless, that isn't nor should what anyone is concerned with. I don't want to start proof-texting, but this is all I could find:
Gospels: "Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”"
Gospels: "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."
Gospels: "“The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field."
1 Timothy: As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.
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Then why have faith in God and not in the Flying Spaghetti Monster? If evidence has nothing to do with it, what does? You believe because your parents told you to? You may feel like you were born with faith in God, but you weren't. Some person told you this is how it is and you chose to agree.
As far as why do I live a good life? Because I choose to. I have free will and choose to act in a way that makes me feel good. Yes, it's 100% selfish, but why is that wrong? I feel good and the people I'm good to feel good. How is this a problem? There's no God guiding me to do his will. I would argure that "his will" is actually a creation of those who do good.
