N.J. Court Says Americans Have No Right To Buy Handguns
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QUOTE (i8acobra @ Nov 12 2009, 10:57 PM)
Wow, you just went completely off the grid with that whole post. Nobody's saying you're going to eliminate anything. You don't eliminate irresponsibility with licensing. However, you do guarantee that they have more knowledge than a rock.
The people who would have been idiots will continue to be idiots whether or not they nod their way through a safety course. If they actually have to "pass" anything, it's a restriction of their right to bear arms. Exposing a bunch of idiots to something they won't pay attention to and learn from doesn't help anything, just costs the majority of people who are not complete morons money.
QUOTE (i8acobra @ Nov 12 2009, 10:57 PM)
Regarding speech, I'm not splitting hairs at all. You simply fail to grasp the analogy. I don't know if you really don't get it or if you're just doing the whole "gun nut", "I don't care what you say, I just want my gun" routine.
If someone talks you into doing something you wouldn't otherwise do, you become like the gun that goes off. You're the one failing to see the analogy. Sure, someone has to have ill will in their heart, but if they take you, fill your head with BS ideas, and you go out like a machine and do harm it's a similar idea.
Scenario 1: Idiot buys a gun. Regardless of training he is playing with it and it goes off, shoots through a wall, and hits his neighbor in the head instantly killing him.
Scenario 2: Idiot meets a cult leader. Cult leader convinces him that he is the embodiment of God on Earth. Cult leader brainwashes the idiot and commands him to kill his neighbor.
Both cases, the idiot doesn't go into the situation wanting to kill his neighbor, but it happens anyways and he's the reason the neighbor is dead. It's equally dangerous and I doubt the neighbor really cares whether someone somewhere desired him to be dead.
QUOTE (i8acobra @ Nov 12 2009, 10:57 PM)
Allow me to explain... If a charismatic person uses speech to incite someone to act violently and cause harm, it's because they intended that to happen. If someone points a gun at another person, pulls the trigger and causes harm, it's because they intended that to happen. These to examples parallel each other.
Yes. However the idiot is in the place of the gun. Maybe the idiot wasn't even ordered to kill someone, just has his head filled with the idea that all people without white skin are bad and randomly kills someone someday that he wouldn't have killed otherwise and not at the command of his cult leader.
QUOTE (i8acobra @ Nov 12 2009, 10:57 PM)
However, unlike speech, which isn't going to accidentally hurt anyone, a firearm can accidentally harm someone. Get it?
You seriously do not get it. I guess you only care WHERE the danger comes from and refuse to care about dangers not associated with some idiot waving a gun around carelessly.
QUOTE (i8acobra @ Nov 13 2009, 09:57 AM)
Simple... courses are taught by anyone who is a licensed dealer. They're paid an amount determined by the government issuing the license so they all charge the same for the course. The course is the same anywhere that you take it. When you complete the course, the dealer electronically notifies the licensing authority that you've completed the course, just like smog testers do when you get your car smogged. Occasionally, the dealers are audited to make sure they're actually teaching the course and not just "rubber stamping" everyone. You then get your license right there at the dealer and purchase your gun. Everything else stays the same as it is now. There's no "choke point" because there is no mechanism for denying the license. Once you take the class and pass any background checks that are or are not currently required, you get the license. Yes, you would have to pay for the license so that it doesn't come out of taxes, but you'd never have to renew it. You take the course once and the license is good forever.
Sure, at first. Then people who owe back child support are not allowed to get their permit, or have their permit revoked if they already have one and all their guns confiscated and destroyed. And it goes on from there. You know the anti-gun groups are working towards a goal of total confiscation and every move in that direction is towards that goal.
QUOTE (i8acobra @ Nov 12 2009, 10:57 PM)
You just proved my point. It's the gun owner's responsibility. The gun owner should therefore have some type of training before buying. You can't legislate stupidity, but you can give people the basic knowledge needed to handle a dangerous tool.
So how in depth is this training going to be? Is it going to cover all action types, all safety types, on all types of weapons? Or just a "don't look down this thing, don't point it at anything you're not gonna shoot, and always treat it like it's loaded." type of thing? Why require a permit then? Make the 5 minute speech part of the process of buying any firearm but don't require a permit.
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QUOTE (187sks @ Nov 13 2009, 10:32 AM)
The people who would have been idiots will continue to be idiots whether or not they nod their way through a safety course. If they actually have to "pass" anything, it's a restriction of their right to bear arms. Exposing a bunch of idiots to something they won't pay attention to and learn from doesn't help anything, just costs the majority of people who are not complete morons money.
I though we established that there are already restrictions on gun rights? This restriction at least accomplishes something.
QUOTE (187sks @ Nov 13 2009, 10:32 AM)
If someone talks you into doing something you wouldn't otherwise do, you become like the gun that goes off. You're the one failing to see the analogy. Sure, someone has to have ill will in their heart, but if they take you, fill your head with BS ideas, and you go out like a machine and do harm it's a similar idea.
Scenario 1: Idiot buys a gun. Regardless of training he is playing with it and it goes off, shoots through a wall, and hits his neighbor in the head instantly killing him.
Scenario 2: Idiot meets a cult leader. Cult leader convinces him that he is the embodiment of God on Earth. Cult leader brainwashes the idiot and commands him to kill his neighbor.
Both cases, the idiot doesn't go into the situation wanting to kill his neighbor, but it happens anyways and he's the reason the neighbor is dead. It's equally dangerous and I doubt the neighbor really cares whether someone somewhere desired him to be dead.
Yes. However the idiot is in the place of the gun. Maybe the idiot wasn't even ordered to kill someone, just has his head filled with the idea that all people without white skin are bad and randomly kills someone someday that he wouldn't have killed otherwise and not at the command of his cult leader.
Scenario 1: Idiot buys a gun. Regardless of training he is playing with it and it goes off, shoots through a wall, and hits his neighbor in the head instantly killing him.
Scenario 2: Idiot meets a cult leader. Cult leader convinces him that he is the embodiment of God on Earth. Cult leader brainwashes the idiot and commands him to kill his neighbor.
Both cases, the idiot doesn't go into the situation wanting to kill his neighbor, but it happens anyways and he's the reason the neighbor is dead. It's equally dangerous and I doubt the neighbor really cares whether someone somewhere desired him to be dead.
Yes. However the idiot is in the place of the gun. Maybe the idiot wasn't even ordered to kill someone, just has his head filled with the idea that all people without white skin are bad and randomly kills someone someday that he wouldn't have killed otherwise and not at the command of his cult leader.
You are apparently of the school of psychology that believes a person can be made to do something they don't already want to do. I'm not. Most psychologists now understand that you can't "brainwash" a person into doing something they aren't already capable of doing. Either way, I'm talking about the person owning the gun or making the speech. The person hearing the speech isn't the gun. The speech itself is. The person making the speech owns the speech or the gun.
BTW, inciting someone to act in violation of the law IS illegal and is not protected speech. If I tell you to kill your neighbor and you do it, I'm guilty of murder along with you. Ask any lawyer.
QUOTE (187sks @ Nov 13 2009, 10:32 AM)
Sure, at first. Then people who owe back child support are not allowed to get their permit, or have their permit revoked if they already have one and all their guns confiscated and destroyed. And it goes on from there. You know the anti-gun groups are working towards a goal of total confiscation and every move in that direction is towards that goal.
The system I'm suggesting has no human involvement, so there's no opportunity to deny the license. Take the course... get the license.
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I've determined that we have different views on things and will not be able to find common ground. That's okay, happens all the time and the great thing is that we can both express our opinions to each other respectfully.
That being said, I'm not interested in going back and forth anymore so I won't rebut what you said because there is nothing to gain from it as we are both set in our opinion and both have valid reasons for feeling the way we do about the issue.
So with that, good debate, I enjoyed it.
That being said, I'm not interested in going back and forth anymore so I won't rebut what you said because there is nothing to gain from it as we are both set in our opinion and both have valid reasons for feeling the way we do about the issue.
So with that, good debate, I enjoyed it.
