Wow.

Some very uneducated and lazy members in here, type what you have to say, don't piggy back on others comments, that just shows that you follow, but can never lead.

North Korea is far from America's fault. The UN was drawn into that war in the 50's, with us as a member of it, it wasn't the US running in on it's own.

As for these people, any citizen arrested in the US for this shit needs to be read their rights, those that aren't citizens of the US should not, and have no US CITIZEN RIGHTS. Those detained that were captured in other countries are POW's, and also have no rights as a US CITIZEN, unless they ARE one. We NEVER have read them their rights, EVER, why would we now? When Iraqi's were surrendering by the HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS, we didn't read them, why would we now?

It still amazes me how many of you forget that 9/11 happened BEFORE all of this. The first attacks on the Twin Towers happened in 93, and terrorists have been attacking our country and our interests around the world for WAY longer than that. Oh, but now it's all because of the last 8 years right?

Right.

Of course, we all can sit here and talk anything we want, with most here basing their opinions on something they have NO experience with whatsoever. If you have never been out of the US, to even Mexico for that matter, you have no clue. Get further away and see how the world really is, and you are even more off base. Then we have others here in the US that HAVE gone out of the country, and even to some of the places mentioned here. When you go on vacation though, you rarely go to where things actually happen. You go to the americanized tourist traps, you go to the places you are always told about, you don'[t go and see the countries on your own, for their good and bad parts. So we end up with a populace that is not worldly.

Oh, but you read about it online somewhere, so you know what's real fo sho yo. Right?

Right.

Believe it or not, I used to think a lot like some of you guys. Then I went to Mexico, Spain, the Netherlands, and Korea.

My point?

They aren't Americans, they get no American rights. Guantonamo Bay is there for a reason, USE it, bring them here and they get out of their cells, go back to where they were before, and just plan bigger and better attacks.

Funny how when, a few days after 9/11, when President Bush told everyone that this would be a LONG and DIFFICULT war, everyone agreed and told him to do what needed done. Now folks don't even remember what happened on that September day.

As I often say, if the Revolutionary War would have gone on for 6 more months, we would be spelling color color and eating crumpets with tea.

well hell if we give them miranda rights, we might as well give them free medical benefits as well right?

guessing since these type of people dont come just by themselves, should we give their families jobs that a true american can do?

not a american citizen, no rights.

drillsergeant.gif I was gonna stay out of this... just because I have been over there and done that... and the way that some of you are talking frustrated me to no end...

But I suppose I will jump into this mud hole and make a mess as well. (I always hate following Red Zman though... I feel like a let down cause I never seem so passionate. lol)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (i8acobra @ Jun 10 2009, 06:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You need to get a real education about real Islam. Manifestos published on right-wing sites should not be considered educational material. Islam doesn't preach hatred. Radical Islamists do. Those people represent Islam about as much as white supremacists represent Christianity.</div>
Not true sir, please actualy read a Quran...

*sigh*
So, I have been to Iraq, I have been to Afghanistan. I have spoken with locals in both of those countries. It was facinating to actually speak with them, even in Qatar and Saudi Arabia, they feel the same. The people there (who are not part of terrorist orginizations) love us. With no doubts what so ever they love us. Most label us as saviors coming in to "clean up a plague (terrorism) that is an open sore on their backs that they struggle to get rid of..." is what one guy told me, and I will never forget that, because he thanked me for being there and invited me and my group back to his house for dinner. But I digress...
These people (terrorist)... if that's what we are calling them, do not deserve the rights that we here in America have. What have they done to deserve getting such rights as the Miranda Rights? Hmm? I know they haven't fought to have them. One very small group in Washington DC thinks they need it. Becasue it is only fair, and we need to play by the rules... I don't know if you have noticed lately, BUT between the US and the UK are the only ones abiding by any kind of rules in combat. If you can't play by rules, then why should you get luxuries like the right to a lawyer?
Are you, as Americans, willing to pay for them ALL to have lawyers? Cause it WILL be the tax payers here in the US who have to pay for them... I dunno about you, but having to pay back, the what, $20 Trillion or so "bail out" we have now (I love the part where some endangered mouse in California gets $100 million, cause that is gonna help the country and give us jobs) is gonna be a HUGE burden for maybe not us, but future generations to pay back and I don't really want to have to pay for lawyers for a group of people that want nothing more than to kill us, our families and friends, and fellow Americans. I even got a chance to speak with a terrorist that had been captured in Iraq. He was from Jordan, and he said that he went there just to Kill Americans and then die and go to Allah and recieve his 'just reward'. These guys will do whatever they want to us when they capture us, they don't care about the rights of Americans, but hey WE NEED TO GIVE THEM RIGHTS!!! Dear God people, wake up and look at the big picture. Obama wants us to give them rights, but when he ran for President, did you notice that he was against it!
He brings up a GOP Convention line about Miranda warnings ... but simply responds with a theatrical smirk.

From there, he proceeds to mock the federal government for failing to catch Bin Laden (not that that's on Obama's front burner anymore), and then discusses the need for terrorist detainees to be allowed to file habeas petitions in federal courts. The Miranda issue, however, is simply laughed aside, as if it was preposterous to even raise the subject.

And two months after his Inauguration, President Obama reiterated, "Now, do these folks deserve miranda rights? Do they deserve to be treated like a shoplifter down the block? Of course not."

So much for the smirk and sarcasm. I guess the joke's on us.

Oh well, maybe it's just my thinking they they don't need such things, having seem them in REAL LIFE. Sure I'm in the Air Force, I'm not a front liner like the Army or Marines, but I have seen war. I have been shot at. I've have rockets land within 100 yrds of where I was standing. I have even shot back at a group trying to attack the fence line of the base I was at. I've even seen a kid no more then 12 with a RPG launcher on his back flip us off and grab his crotch at the same time mouthing something at us in his native language. I have been told by some Army guys what they do to you if you are wounded in battle and they get to you first. They drag you someplace and torture you for however long they feel same in that location and then they kill you. We on the other hand have to give them aid, it becomes priority one to get them to cover and mend their ones and withdraw them from the battlefield in a safe manner, if one of them happen to get hurt.

Getting that side of it, please tell me why on Earth they need the same rights as we do? mad.gif

This is plainly simple:

If America wants to say that it is in a position of moral high-ground, they will lose credibility every time they treat someone with a differing opinion inequally. I never said enemy combatants were US citizens, but at the same time, we've already covered how all people created by God have "inalienable rights" that no man can take away.

We are taking those rights away -- not US citizen rights (ie the right to vote), but the inalienable rights of freedom and equal treatment. By arbitrarily picking who should and should not receive said freedoms, then you have become no different than the enemy. And worse, this enemy feeds on that behavior.

And having been to a multitude of countries outside of the United States (and yet, not Mexico nor Canada), dont' give me any of that "If you haven't been there, you don't know" line. I've been there, and I know. We are losing quite a bit of face, a considerable amount of it (for good reasons or not) to G W Bush. Whether or not that's fair isn't specifically part of this discussion. Whether or not you agree with is policies, Obama has done at least one thing -- he has started the process of mending America's crappy global reputation. And I've been abroad since his election to hear this directly from other country's mouths.

Terrorists are nothing new; the Crusades are a prime example of Christianity going nuts. Just like there are radical factions of Christians running amok even today talking about killing Muslims, Iraqi's and Afgans, and abortion doctors, there are also radical members of other religious parties talking about killiing Christians, Americans and English, and women who speak in public.

Here's the bottom line:
You can't use physical force to change an idea; it isn't physical. It's like using a baseball bat to somehow condense energy -- they are two seperate mediums. All this talk about winning this war is complete bullshit, and in most cases, only serves to fuel the ideas underpinning the "terror" to begin with. If that's what you think America is all about, then you're sorely mistaken.

I don't know where the hell you went... but you can<u><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"> NOT</u></span> talk these people into anything!! It's not in their belief system. These people only know force. They will tell you that to your face if you ask.

Also, we only really have a bad rep in the world thanks to the media. I've been a lot of places and the only one that really did not like Americans was France. Unless you found someone that was around and directly affected by WWII, then they hated us. They hate us because they see us as rich, powerful. Everything they are not. That is their opinions on us, most of them don't know any better.

Maybe you're right; maybe they only know force. Nevertheless, by continuing our policy of torture, indefinite confinement, and returned force, we only cause the process to continue.

Again, you can't declare war on an idea -- it's a losing battle, because applying any amount of physical force to an idea does nothing but re-inforce the idea. So again, you're only feeding the problem.

Want the problem to go away? Provide a better idea, or prove the first idea wrong -- which you can't do with force.

Funny how waterboarding is torture if we do it to others, but when we do it to train our own troops it's "training".

America is supposed to be exactly what you are saying RED, but unfortunately when we play like that, we get 9/11 and similar attacks. How many more of US need to die before people get it through their heads that no matter how you try to justify it, you cannot think like them, because you aren't them.

They don't have air conditioning.

They don't have clean water.

They don't bathe daily.

They don't allow girls to go to school.

They don't have freedom of speech.

Should we go on? They fight because they have nothing, NOTHING. The ones that ARE educated leave, instead of staying and changing things, and until the average person there is globally educated, ideas like dozens of virgins are enough to get you to do anything, because that for SURE is better than eating dust and drinking goat milk.

We weren't "playing like that when we got 9/11". No, we had been playing VERY underhandedly for a VERY long time. Our strong-arm tactics are absolutely nothing new.

They aren't fighting us because they don't have air conditioning, or because they don't have pretzels, or because they can't speak out. If that were the case, two thirds of the world would be fighting us.

No, they're fighting us because we've been doing underhanded things to their country, their people, and yes, even their religion for decades. We've been doign it for our own economic and political gain, and we've made their lives miserable for no other reason than to incrementally increase our own. That is why they are fighting us.

Until we stop the injustice, they have no reason to stop either.

You're right Red, you can't wage war on an idea. That was stupid when we started the "war"s against drugs, poverty, homelessness, illiteracy, etc. as well. If you don't identify an enemy, expect a war to be as long as the profitability of the war materiel manufacturers continues unabated.

But you're wrong about using force on the islamists. We are not treating someone with a differing opinion inequally. If a bunch of white dudes wanted to blow us up, we'd shoot at them too. Just today that DID happen in fact, in the holocaust museum. What we are fighting is a worldwide group of people trying to live up to the exemplary life of their religion's inventor.

Look, I *have* studied islam. I have read the koran, the sunnah, the hadith. Have you? Yes there are parts you can use to explain a peaceful culture. But the ottoman empire did not grow through peace. Starting with mohammed himself who led 3/4 of the terrorist murder/rapine/pillage raids carried out by his private army, islam has ALWAYS been about subjecting your neighbor. The crusades were a response to several hundred years of muslim aggression BTW way to bring up a bad analogy.

I have also read the bible, repeatedly. From reading these books, I can tell you that the gods they describe are NOT the same one, regardless of what some of their religions' adherents say. It's like saying you know a guy named Johan with blue hair brown eyes and he's married to your sister, and I know a guy named Johan with brown hair and brown eyes and he's gay, and they're the same person because we call them both Jo.

Obama is a classic example of an academic leftist. He carries around in his gourd all the stereotypical pie-in-the-sky ideas of how things ought to be according to the rich, well-fed socialists in tenured positions in colleges around the country. If you can't see that, you aren't paying attention.

Edit: oh, and the current crop of people called Palestinians aren't from "palestine."

I can understand the giving of rights to terrorists as prisoners of war if we want to be the moral leaders of the world, etc.

Using the Miranda warning as the basis behind that seems flawed to me. Miranda is only used before giving a subject an interrogation - arrests can and do occur in the US without Miranda being given if the subject is not going to be interrogated. From what I understand, the government is requiring this to be read on all arrests - and not all of these arrest are necessarily going to be interrogated.

Prisoners of war I would imagine are not subject to the right to an attorney - which I believe is where the whole Guantanamo Bay and holding subjects for an undeclared amount of time (till the "war on terror" is over). If we do provide attorneys to these individuals, are American citizens ready to foot the bill to pay for an attorney for a possible terrorist to have his day of court probably in another country? I personally wouldn't want my money paying for such a trial.

Even if these laws do go into effect, there is no world standard. Some countries don't have Miranda rights, others have different interpretations and playoffs of Miranda. If there is no set standard, what is to keep some terrorists from complaining when they aren't provided the rights if they arrested by say, Canadians. Without a world standard, it just seems to be its opening a can of worms. And as the world standard is currently the Geneva convention, I'd prefer an ammendment to that rather than the U.S trying to be the moral standard leader.

As it is, even if this goes through, theres nothing to stop the Military from letting another country arrest the terrorist and interrogate them and not be subject to this possibility in the first place.