I'll get back to you for sure. It ashame I have more important work to do to my house than to argue with you. But I will be certain to respond. This is a well founded debate and I would like to see it continue

 

I don't think there are as many religous people that don't believe in microevolution....when they speak against it is in reference to marcoevolution, but they just call it evolution and assume it is obvious they are referring to macro type, as they think that as it makes no sense to argue micro. All you have to do to change their mind is take them to Africa, the people are darker, because of all the sun, an example of microevolution right there.





And many don't even have resistance to evolution as a theory, other than the fact it is mandatory to be learned in most schools and some toute it as fact, and you are uneducated and dumb if you don't believe in that theory, that is more where the resistance comes from (People like Dr. Harris saying it is a fact and looking down on those who don't buy into the theory). I just find marco evolution requires just as much faith as creationism if not more.









Though could we get a mod to make a new thread and discuss it there? I feel bad that I accedently we thread jacked the OP's thread, and kind of want to see responses in regards to free will, not evolution.

 

Creationism is for folks who think the science is just too complicated.



What are the chances that life began spontaneously? When you consider the number of planets that exist... the chances of life happening one just one are pretty freakin' good. I'd be surprised if it hasn't happened on at least one or two more.

 

 

Whatnot, I think your point about humans being willed to survive is bang on.



What if the brain's 'programming goal' is only ever to survive? Sometimes our primitive brain can be fooled into thinking it is surviving well when that is certainly not the case. If we think about the adrenaline junkie you mentioned, or maybe someone addicted to heroin, or even someone who plays a lot of world of warcraft. In these cases, the subconcious part of our brain is being tricked into thinking it might be hunting, or it might just be chemically hooked onto the rush from a substance. In any case, the concious brain recognises that these aren't healthy behaviours at all, but has huge troubles in reigning in the harmful behaviour. Any success or failure in curbing an alcohol addiction could be attributed to the subconcious' ability to resist the urges to drink, in the meantime the concious brain will feel like sh*t about drinking regardless of what happens.



I dare say that the concious brain could be enslaved to the impulses and activity from the parts of the brain that we cannot percieve.



Your argument is still strong though, I mean, your inital point about the definition of free will is true. If you define free will as something that your robot lacks, then we don't have free will at all. If it means that the concious brain commentator in your head can control your actions, probably not. If you define it as the ability to act outside of our biological calling, then we do indeed possess it.



Pretty sure this discussion is worth failing my finals.

 

Ok lets start a thread about evolution vs creationism and the concepts involved. I think it would be a great debate to have. Lets just all keep from attacking each other. I was guilty of this and I will refrain from it. Although sometimes getting your point across can sound harsh but I think we can all be civil.



I think me telling people to get a clue was out of line but i don't see support for an argument based on poor spelling either.



so someone start up the thread. If we have to cut and paste out of this thread in order to have the foundation and continue, so be it. Cut and paste your own responses if you think they should be included. I will look for the thread

 

Insulting a group because you don't understand (or seemingly care to know) is ignorant. It is ironic how many atheist call others close minded when they aren't very open minded themselves...



I fully understand and love science, it intrigues me, and I don't think it is too complicated. However evolution is a theory that I don't buy into, but not just because of the Bible, just from an acedemic stand point, I actually find it MUCH MUCH more far fetched probability wise than creationism.



Creationsism is for folks who believe in God. I think too many atheist don't understand Christians, they more so go off of the stereotype of them, which we all know stereotypes come from truth and a majority, but not everyone. I don't like blanket statements, they are untrue. Some Christians don't know what they believe and are just regurgitating what they have been raised to believe. The reason evolution doesn't 'scare' me is because my faith is in God, not religion. IF evolutionism was found as a fact, all that would mean to me is that God created evolutionism, so I really don't care if it was right....Though again, I think it is so hihgly improbable. Many Christians believe in evolution because of the Bible, and believe the Bible because of evolution, so if you prove evolution, their whole mindset is shattered and their world collapses. Much like in inception, people don't like to have their world shattered, so they get defensive like the assasins trying to protect it's thoughts. I don't like circular logic. My faith is in God, not a book, God is not confined to the Bible, the Bible is the Word of God, "2 Timothy 3:16-17 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. " That is what the Bible is for, it isn't supposed to be something your faith is put into, that is what God is for, as He is a rock, unchangable/unchanging, unfailible, so if your faith is in God, there can never be any threat to Him and there is no need to ever be defensive or scared of your world being changed if God is your world.



BUT, are you sure you want talk chances and probabilities??? That is like arguing broccoli is healthier for you than grapes, because fruits are healthier. lol I have never heard an evolutionist go anywhere near probablility when debating FOR evolution. Rather science and theories based off of facts is your main guns, I would recommend sticking to them...



You say what is the chance of life happening spotaneously??? But that is what the big bang is. Though I understand I moved from evolution to the big bang, that is just macroevolution of a higher scale, gasses, germs and molecules make organims to animals, to humans ect. So big bang is macroevolution.



And you think the chances of life on other plantes is good? I have a lottery ticket for you then which has a "freakin' good" chance of winning, I will sell it to you for $20k. lol Do you know of all the things that could kill every life form on earth? How many 'coincidences' have to occur to keep us alive? Any you think life is on other panets?





The big bang and some gases making something as complex as humans and earth to support them and the animals and plants interworkings is astonomically unprobable, it is hard ot know where to start. For a planet to be just far enough away from the sun to not freeze water or boil it, and it happens to be the right size too, as if the earth was the size of jupiter or some other planet, the poles would freeze or boil us, so the earths size is just right to be able to inhabit 90% of the land, any bigger and it would be unhabitable due to temps, and any smaller, it's gravity would change causing the moons rotation to change requiring earth to be closer to the sun....and the list goes on. To have a moon to mix the tides so the salt water can mix and not become a stagnant sesspool that couldn't be conducive to live, to having plants that give us the very gas that we need to breath, to having plants to heal us and give us nutrition....I could write a million pages on the 'coincidences' that HAVE to have occur both in time and space for humans to live is just so atronomical and I think requires much faith to believe. That is why I don't believe in evolution, not because "science is just too complicated".



Their is only one 'highly improbable' element in creationism, and that is that God exist. But if He did, it would be so 'simple' to design all the intricacies and commonalities and harmonies, and complexities that exsist. Gravity or time or life is something we have yet to explain how or why it works, we just measure it's workings, we can't create it, so it that easier to believe that 'evolution' created that? Or that a grand designer did? So strictly from an acedemic standpoint, I think it is much more probable of a designer than of random happen chance of time and space a millions times over and over again...not to mention the big bang theory which goes against all of the laws of nature/physics that we know of today, as we are not aware of any time of space or drag, so there should be nothing to bleed off the 'energy' that was in that bang, in which case it wouldn't be a bang (a relatively short in time expansion over a large distance) rather it should be an existing expansion still, and it would have been a very small one, that just hasn't died out as there is nothing to expend it's energy.



So again, my nonbelief of evolution isn't religious reltated, rather academic related. Though my belief in creationsism comes from a 'gut' feeling which can't be explained or comprehended. That is why I don't push it on anyone, to me it is just an obvious thing, like when you are hungry, you know it. I would challenge anyone to not be so close minded and think all creationist are brainwashed from people or books, and to seek God (not of any specific religion or book) but the creator of the amazing wonders and provisions and see if He doesn't reveal to you the truth about Him. Though I use the term truth losely, I don't mean a scientific truth (I know it is a belief of mine), rather just like I said when you are hungry (not close, but the best analogy I can come up with), it is a feeling of truth you have, though hunger for food is given to you by your brain due to your various nerves ect., God is a truth given by Himself to those that seek Him. It is my belief that anyone who seeks God, He will reveal Him and His Son(Demonstrating His love for us) to them.









I have seen some really neat scinece show explainign this even from a mating standpoint and hormones and how the closer related we are the worse we smell to repell like relatives to prevent birth defects. To seeing shows on conformity being programed into us and many other unconsious built in will to survive elements which are very interesting.





I agree with your premise here, but not your explanation on hunting (though I understand you were most likely throwing out a possible reasoning for those actions). Again, I used an ambiguos term of "life", or preseration of it. I don't think we have quite as strong of a biological programing to perserve our life, as we do to perserve human life. I think just like the reason we want to mate, to pass on our genes and ensure the life of human race, is the same reason we might be a herion, we feel it is more important to protect our children then ourselves. The long term of why we mate anyways, is the preservation of man kind, the short term is obviously the pleasure. Which obviously short term is there for adrenaline junkies, but is there a long term wanting? I don't think so, I think it is stricly for the short term high or chemical rush as you said.





Is a slave free? Again that depends on your definition. A slave will be punished or killed if they don't obey, but they don't 'have' to. Much like our brain, it isn't 'enslaved' so much as it is hihgly persuaded to the impulses and activity from the parts of the brain that we cannot percieve as well as the parts we can percieve like our observatiaons of history and not wanted to repeat it if the expereince was undesirable.





I know asking if a slave is free sounds like a dumb question, but I am just utilizing Dr Harris' method of making something so technical our 'common' thought now becomes wrong. Though I am not doing it to sound smart, I know I am not, I don't even have a degree, I am merely using over technicality to prove what I seaid earlier that many things can be over analysed to make yourself sound smarter than you are.





VVVV



I should haev a 1 hour debate and say America never had any slaves or any country for that matter. Some of you may think I am crazy, but I think in the future we will come to know I am right. There are still people that believe in evolution though, so if we can't convince them of that proven untruth, we can't convince them that we never had human slaves. Though if we look at teh fact, they could do what they wanted at any time, though they would be punished and so they 'chose' to not run away. In making that choice, they weren't slaves, rather chose to do what they did for unwant of pain.



^^^Obviously don't take what I said serious there, I was mocking Dr. Harris if you couldn't tell. Can I tell I don't respect him? lol. Now if he would debate it, I would respect that, I enjoy debates, but not a lecture, that makes you seem so haughty on your high horse. Oh please mr genious, please share your depth of knowledge with us... And I have seen Dr. Harris debate, and he is terrible, he lacks counter arguments and logic. His 'arsenal' consist of using sarcasm and red herrings and condesention, it's pathetic.







So would you also buy my argument that many manay things can be 'technically' spoke on to make your point correct and sound smart and that is what Dr. Harris is doing? He wants money or fame and is simply minipulating people into thinking he discovered a ground breaking theory which really is just semantics of

technicalities and taking advantage of an ambiguos term?

 

I agree with just about everything whatnot has said. I surely wish i had the education level to describe it just as well.

I believe that if one believes that all of the worlds wonders are coincidence is foolish at best

 

Saying you don't "buy into" evolution is akin to not "buying into" the sun being hot. That's not being closed minded. That's an opinion based on evidence, not faith. Yes, I find "faith" to be a ridiculous concept in all of it's forms. I don't have faith that the sun will come up tomorrow, I have knowledge that it will based on a preponderance of evidence that says it will.

 

welp i was gonna keep myself out of this but hey i wouldnt be a very good troll now would i



first, this is the offtopic cafe, where sh*t gets offtopic so probably no need to split, make new posts etc, hell the admin is cool with it being this way so screw it.



here is some cold truth for everyone(as stated earlier in the thread but ill reiterate it now):



evolution is a theory

big bang is a theory

christianity is a theory



some chose to believe a little more whole-hearted in one of those aspects of theory and I respect that you stick to your guns about that but lets face it NO ONE on this earth knows for sure what is theory and what is fact in any of those matters



me? im sorta on the fence of all things really, yes maybe the big bang did happen and maybe we did evolve from apes who knows? heck maybe God created the big bang as a way to evolve the creation of mankind, all those gases had to come from somewhere



if creationism exists then who created the creator?



what came first the chicken or the egg?



how the hell is Kristen Stewart an actress?



there are just too many questions to be had and the fact that i can question goes to show that i was created/hatched/evolved/miracled a free will





Then dont blanket statement that creationism is only for christians and that God is only for christians.



remember folks not all people who arent christians are atheist



dont want people to stereotype? dont live up to the stereotype of the imposing christian