Trypgod

O.k. As far as i understand, in a turbo setup..the exhaust from the engine spins the turbine which shoots the pressurised air through the intercooler to the engine. ((in a very condensed nutshell)) also the issues with lag for spoolup..etc..etc.

Heres the issue. My brother and I have what we believe to be a functional electrical induction setup. In a nutshell, there is a turbine inline with the intake that is free flowing when not in use. I.E. the motor can pull as much air as it desires with no constriction. My brother, doing the math, taking the max flow at redline, and factoring in the turbine output, on this setup we would be looking at about 5 pounds max of positive boost, and that is with the turbine at max speed. We have a cap system that will bring the turbine up to full speed rather quickly and then it holds on the 12vdc(( it will spool with 12vdc, put it takes forever)). Since the engine will be able to breathe freely with the turbine not running, here is our idea. Turbo on demand smile.gif. our source for the turbine can get us higher flow units. but none of them would be able to run constantly. The dream is instead of flicking the switch and getting a shot of nitrous, u flip the switch and the caps fire, the turbine spools up and u got a nice handful of boost. ((btw, Random...we DO have a emergency pressure release mechanism on this one..::RIP tibby motor #1:: )).

What would be the engine logistics of turbo on demand?? I have a feeling that on "normal" turbo setups there is some extra fuel delivery functionality?? i'm not sure, but i could research. If more fuel is required, then its control and delivery would have to be "on demand". If not, then thats all good. I do not believe that an intercooler would be necessary, cus even though u can run the turbine for a pretty damn good chunk of time, it dosen't get all that hot, and especially since its not sitting next to the headers and using the exhaust gasses to spin. Of course we have controllers that can adjust boost (on the fly)the only real problems i possibly see is not enough fuel, but i'll admit that my conventional turbo theory isn't really all that expansive. So anyone have any ideas as to issues that might crop up with hafing part time forced induction?? btw, it will be safe to assume that the intake charge is significantly cooler than ambient smile.gif ((another project to be discussed soon)).

I'm All ears, and i want to listen, cuz if we can get these last kinks worked out, this is something that we want to make available to everyone, and possibly to the masses.

We are willing to buy a motor if need be, but i REALLY don't wanna walk to the parts counter and tell them i need to order a fourth motor LOL.

Later Yall,

Chris...

steele

Just out of curiousity, what are the components behind this "electrical induction"? A leaf blower strapped to your intake? (j/k, but I've seen it done)
And doesn't whatever you're using put quite a load on your alternator?

Random

A couple of quick points, then some help.

#1 The "heat" in a turbo setup comes from compressing the air. Anytime you compress anything you heat it, when you "uncompress" or "unpressurise" anything, you cool it. So your 5 PSI will be heating your intake air charge. I'll put up the math calculation later to night for you to figure out how much you are heating it, but you ARE HEATING THE AIR simply by compressing/pressuring it.

#2. Your setup is causing airflow restriction while not under boost. Anything other than 100% pure unadulterated straight pipe is causing a restriction. So you fan sitting in the air path is causing a restriction. If you somehow have an "alternate" air path for the fan, and a straight path for the normal intake air, that would be better, but the "diversion" pipe out, and the 'diversion" pipe back in both cause air flow disruptions of their own.

You also need to make sure that you are always sucking air past the MAF, so the ECU can make the right adjustments.


yes, you need to add more fuel with the increase in air. This cannot be accomplished with an S-AFC, as the S-AFC is a full time device, you need one that is only active while under boost. The only product I know that can do this is the UniChip setup with the Optional Boost controler.

It basically does nothing until it see's boost, then it adjusts the fuel rate/pressure accordingly.

With just 5 PSI, you might not NEED the Uni-Chip and boost module. The Stock ECU/MAF MIGHT, be able to accomidate the increase in air flow for 5 PSI, and then add the proper ammount of fuel. That along with a rising rate fuel pressure regulator might just do the trick. One that would increase fuel pressure as boost level, plus the stock ECU adding more fuel for the increased MAF reading might be all you need.

Lastly...Make sure your bypass runs back to the intake, between the MAF and "intake" side of the your compressor fan. Otherwise you will run rich when you close the throttle and the boost fan is still rotating at high speed.

Canadian Prairie Shark

Please keep me posted on your project. I am very interested in it.
Thanx.

Trypgod

I've seen it done before too, dude had a voltage inverter hardwired to electrical, and ran the blower offa that. Actually same general universe of idea, cept the turbine we use runs on 12vdc, so no conversion losses to get the turbine powered. We used capacitors so when we "flip the switch" they fire and give quick spoolup. The caps are charged from vehicle electric system, so after you blow. there is about 2 min before u can blow the turbine again, but once u fire and the turbine spools up, u can have it run at least 10-15 min before reccomended break. At this point the turbine is running off of reg 12vdc, and the power drain is not great, plus if u are using the turbo, then u more than likley will be running a lil bit hard witch causes a good charge from the alternator. I don't know specifics as in cap charge and such, my bro is the engineering aspect..lol, and the alternator will charge the caps back up too, in the matter of a min or 2. You could add a beefier alternator, but this is being worked on to have as lil upgrading necessary as possible. Also the cap values can be adjusted for quicker spoolup, but that means longer recharge time. U could still use the turbine b4 the cap recharges, but we figure u fire it and keep it running for a min or 2, and when u let off to stop ((assuming street)) your cap will be charged and ready to go again. If u were to use this for a drag setup, ain't NO way u r gunna do 2 runs in a 3 min timespan.
Lets just say that the leafblower turbo ran for about 30 seconds lol, i assume he ran lean and detonated, it looked like what happend to me years later, thats y i'm looking into increased fuel if necessary.
so to answer your question, no there is no major drain on your electrical system. But i'm sure if one were to go with a high boost turbine and large value caps for near instant spoolup, then u would want to beef up the electrical.

On a related note, i once saw "for every x degrees u lower the intake charge u will get an y increase in HP" i know that it is approx, but if anybody has that info, i would appreciate it, for as we also have a non weight intensive possibility for refrigerating the charge, but we need those numbers to do some figurin...lol

Still need to know about fuel delivery, and or anything else i might have missed.

Chris..

Trypgod

O.k random was writing his reply at the same time as mine lol, looks like he got done first smile.gif.
So, we want the turbine to be between the maf and the engine?? I don't see the difference in pushing through the maf or "pulling" through it, except for the fact of routing the release charge.((btw thanks random, i haden't thought of running rich))
After the turbine has had its 2 min of glory or so, our theory was to hit the "shutoff" and the turbine spools down in approx 2-4 sec,but there are still logistics to work out on that. ((think, arming switch, pushbutton to blow the caps and spoolup, then flip off the arming switch a coupla sec b4 slowing down and turbine is pretty damn well spooled down. I know this isn't the most effective way for a drag setup, but this is mostly proof of concept now, and the refinements can come later if need be.

Yes there will be some restriction on airflow, but the design of the turbine, which i can't seem to find the spec sheets on now DUH!~!, the fan internally and other valving is in a certian way when no voltage applied, that the restriction is not great. before my tranny died this weekend, i had the turbine on my intake inline, no voltage, just letting tibby suck through, the only thing i noticed was a small bit of bottom power lost, and revving was not as crisp, but she drove 400 miles on thursday sucking through the turbine and i noticed no significant decreases..btw we chose these turbines for the relative high flow-through when not in use...of course, when all the potential kinks are worked through there will be a good bit of testing going on smile.gif.

Random, assuming the unichip and boost controller becomes needed, what's that equip run, also a source for a rising rate pump if u know. This setup will NOT be limited to 5 pounds of boost, that just is the max of this specific turbine we are using. They can be made for ANY pressure range, but higher pressures are larger and heavier and mor electrically loading. A lil more info on the component placement and the pressure relief routing you mentioned, as i can't seem to draw a mental picture of it the way you described it..

Random

I always wondered what happened to this project. Someone brought it up a LONG time ago, and I never heard anything else about it, and I have been curious about the concept ever since.

The decrease in low end, and slower throttle response is due to the restriction of the turbine when not in use. It may not be major, and it may be a small price to pay for the gains this idea may show. As I said before, anytime there is anything but a straight pipe, you have intake restriction.

The way to tell how bad it is is rip off 2 dyno runs stock Or with a CAI, then do another 2 runs with the turbine in place, but no power to it. The difference between the 2 dyno sheets will show you how much the turbine is restricting things. If at all possible, do your runs on the same day, at the same dyno shop on the same dyno.

In regards to why after the MAF rather than before. MAF's HATE pressure waves. They are very delicate. When you close the throttle, the pressure wave that bounces off the TB and come back will hit the MAF. You would rather have it hit the Turbine. You also want your IAT between the MAF and the Filter. With a proper blow off valve, you should not have that presure wave problem, but better safe than sorry.

Also...a MAF measures air density. If you presurise the air, you are changing it's density, this will confuse the MAF, as it is designed to measure air volume based of density, in a negative pressure situation (air being sucked past it). If you pressurise the air around/through a MAF you will confuse it (cause it to give off wrong/bad readings).

Ignore the Turbine bypass I was talking about. it was just an extreme example.

You might be able to get away with just a Rising Rate fuel Pressure Regulator. One that raises Fuel Pressure 5 PSI for every 1 PSI of positive manifold pressure. That should give you about 70 PSI of fuel pressure at 5 PSI of boost. The stock pump cannot take 70 PSI for long, I think it is actully only good for 60 PSI, I'll have to check with Red, so a fuel pump upgrade may be needed.

If the MAF registeres the increase in air flow at 5 PSI (basically the engine sucking it's usual volume, PLUS the turbine sucking another 5 PSI worth) it should tell the ECU to add the proper amount of fuel, and the Rising Rate Fuel Pressure Regulator is just there IN CASE. Better to run rich than lean as you found out.

You should really test and tune the device, and adjustable rising rate fuel pressure regulator on a dyno, with a wideband o2 sensor in the tailpipe to monitor A/F ratios. That would allow you to tune the Fuel Pressure regulator to the right ammount.

If you are still running lean, and the fuel pressures are exceeding 60-70 PSI, then you would need larger injectors and a Uni-chip/Boost module setup. That is going to be about $800 to $1000 installed and tuned. The uni-chip would limit the fuel delivery of the larger injectors untill the boost module overrode the uni-chip when it sees boost. For that matter, a Full HalTec setup would be best, but the $1500 price tag on that one is a little steep for this kind of setup.

There may be other methods of ECU trickery that are more affordable that I have not thought of. I will have to do some research on the subject and get back to you.

But 5 PSI should be good for about another 30 to 35 HP to the wheels (supercharger shows 45 HP at 7 PSI), so it should be the about the same as a 50 shot of nitrous. For that you should not need ECU trickery or anything to fool the ECU...just a rising rate fuel pressure regulator. If you go beyond 6 or 7 PSI, then larger injectors or a 5th injector would be required.

as a side note, I would Not mess with cooling the intake air until you have this setup working and tuned. Then you can market this setup or even sell the idea, and then work on improving it with cooler intake air or more pressure/bigger turbine. Also, it is a hell of a lot harder to tune several modifications done at once, than it is to tune for one, then add another and tune again..etc..etc..etc...

Remember the KISS principle.


One final question. How many times can you charge/discharge a cap before it starts to go bad/dies?

Trypgod

Well, I was the one who started the project a long time ago, it ate tibby motor #1. So from what i read, i SHOULD be able to at least do some initial testing with my setup, and more than likley a beefed fuel pump. Next question, if i still run slightly lean, could larger injectors be installed and used with the "beefed" pump, or would i need to go to upgraded electronics to use bigger injectors at all????? I think it would be easier to add slightly larger injectors, than to do a phantom 5th injector....But assuming beefed fuel pump, and injectors to match, and also no apparent need for ecu trickery...how much boost could the maf read before the ecu gets confused?

I like the prospect of only needing to add a new pump and possibly injectors to the setup. Having to go to ecu upgrades would make it a bit expensive and more of a novelty..

Btw, that supercharger with 45hp @7?? what would be a ballpark range to get that setup, so i can try to start crunching numbers...

So i guess i should be able to do initial tests with the fuel mods. I would like to find the max boost that can be used with only fuel mods added.

Btw the SCAI is a completly seperate project, but applicable to almost any setup.
We have working prototypes, but the setup is a bit heavy, i was just asking for that formula so i could do some ballpark figuring.

About the caps, u would be looking at millions of discharges, but there are always chances of defects, accidents, etc. If you use an extremly dog-ass low end estimate of a million discharges, figure on 5 years of running the system, it equals out to blowing the caps 600 times a day lol smile.gif
Also they would not be difficult to replace, call electrical supply house, tell them the value of the cap, pay for them and bolt the terminals in smile.gif it would take 5 min to do the swap...

If the pump and possibly injectors satisfy fuel, we just need to find optimal boost.


Chris..

Random

For 5 Psi, you should be fine with the stock injectors and a moderate increase in fuel pressure.

If you go much above that, you would need larger injectors. The 5th injector setup is not pretty, and I really do NOT reccomend it.

The larger injectors could be held in check with the S-AFC, but you would need something to tell the ECU to dump more fuel when boost occurs. That is why you would need the Uni-Chip with the boost module or a Haltec/motec type setup.

The stock injectors are good to about 185 HP, 200 HP if you REALLY want to push them, but not reccomended. The beefed up fuel pump only offers more flow, not more pressure. Even the DSM Turbo fuel pump craps out at 60 PSI.

I would seriously suggest you try to tune the setup with the stock injectors, at 5 or 6 psi with a rising rate fuel pressure regulator. Then patent that "kit" and sell the idea or product. Then work on modifing the kit for more boost. Because much beyond 5 PSI of boost is going to get expensive, and most people would just like "cheap" HP.

Trypgod

Random, do you have a source and or price on that beefed fuel pump?? Also that SC with 45 hp, what does that run..just for potential kit pricing, i wanna see how much more or less my idea is gunna be. Also is anyone possibly interested in this setup, assuming it really DOES work and all smile.gif. I'd need to source out the fuel pump before working on pricing. Also looking for someone to bounce ideas off of regarding my ((me and my brother's)) SCAI designs..but that is a different thread. smile.gif