Stixer7

Hey guys, It's been 3 years battling with this problem.

I did the Auto to Manual Swap on a beta 1

Since I installed the 5 peed manual Box i've had a problem.

Everytime I start, I get a loud grating noise and the car may or may not start & or tumble. If i continue to crank, I hear as if the starter if grating the flywheel ring gear and the engine does not turn.

I'm wondering if the thin engine plate between the engine block and gearbox may be the problem. I'm using the original one that came with the automatic.
Is there a difference between the manual and automatic plates? I did not get any plate with the conversion.

I need this onfo ASAp as I am about to scrap my turbo project due to the embarrassing startup noises. the engine has every internal aftermarket part available bought new incl. pistons, rods, valves springs etc. Please help

Stocker

Did you reuse the starter, or did you get one made for the manual transaxle? They don't engage the ring gears to the same depth. If you are talking about the little thin plate, I don't think that's your problem.

Have you pulled the starter to see what the teeth on it and the ring gear look like?

Stixer7

I am using the manual starter, I have tried all the different manual starters for the tib, the elantra and even the y2k accent..... i REPLACED FLYWHEEL. and I replaced the gearbox 3 times to see if that would make a difference. I would pay anyone $100 FOR A SOLUTION....OTHER THAN THAT I WOULD NEED TO SCRAP MY PROJECT

Stocker

It doesn't make any sense then unless both flywheels were on backwards or some other impossible thing. It's done the same grinding and not working properly with ALL the starters you tried? That's a bummer. I know the starter is about as hard to get to as anything on the car, but I think it might be informative if you were to pull the starter and have a good look, maybe even get some gear marking compound (like used for rearend gear setup) and mark the ring gear, then turn it over a few times and see what kind of engagement you're getting. It seems like you must be getting minimal if any engagement.

If the teeth are engaging, it should work. I wonder if the mounting is ever-so slightly too far away from the ring gear's axis? Then even if the starter were poking its gear out far enough, it wouldn't be catching the gear to spin it, sometimes with bad grinding.

I don't recall, is there any play at all, in the starter mounting bolt holes? So that you could move the starter closer to the crankshaft or farther toward the firewall?

Stixer7

Ok I dropped the gearbox, Spec Clutch setup, Flywheel etc.

The only odd thing I noticed was that the teeth were grated lower on 1/3 of the ring gear. Almost like a cam lobe. It as not very noticible. the teeth on the starter looked great considering I got it from advance auto for 170 Bucks last week. However, the lower ear of the starter was cracked.

I've tried adjusting the starter over 300 times in all positions. I've broken/replaced 10 Starters, and have done 20 Repairs at a machine shop to broken starter ears. I've tried tumbling over at differnet positions to no avail except broken starter ears. I've used both valeo and Mando starters. I even bought a gearbox and drilled out the holes the starter goes through to give it maximum play and adjustment. I've dowel pinned it to 5 different locations. I've used extended Industrial grade bolts, nuts and lock washers with locktite.

nothing except noise and grating and weak tumble. I have purchased 3 gearboxes to try and find a solution. Adjusting it to the firewall or the crank makes no difference,

I will try and find gear marking compound at a parts place tommorow and try that.

I remember when the car was auto you could crank and crank until the battery wears out 10 muinutes later. And no noises. only smooth tumble

Stocker

Dude. That's funky. Your old starters should all have similar wear on a few mm of their teeth I'm guessing.

The ONLY thing I can think is that it sounds like someone is trying to start without disengaging the clutch, but I'll give you more credit than that.

Do you have a spacer between the block and flywheel?

Is it even physically possible for the ring gear to be on the wrong side of the flywheel? Worn teeth are not going to catch with their already minimal engagement area ground off. Take a photo if you can, so we can guess together, but you may need a new ring gear.

Since you're already buddies with the guys at the machine shop, after you get your new ring gear have them machine the face of your starter for greater depth of engagement, if required.

********

It occurs to me that you might need to do some simple measurements (simple if it weren't for the starter's mounting location). Measure from the mounting plane to the edges (near and far edge) of the ring gear, to know how far the starter gear has to go out. Apply power to the starter solenoid and see how far from the mounting face the starter gear kicks out. If it's not protruding far enough that's at least part of your problem. The next thing I can think of is to make up a little jig from sheet metal and a piece of all-thread (but it's kind of complicated to explain) -To measure directly how close to the gear your starter should be, vs. how close to the gear the starter actually is.

This is a simple mechanical system. The problem must be simple also.

Stixer7

Ok

I never start the car in gear. However i never press and hold the clutch pedal while starting either.

I don't have any spacer.

I'll take some pictures tommorow with some measurements. I took the measurements 2 days ago. the crank thrust andon the flywheel side were bothe 38mm.

The teeth on all the starters I've used look normal. noo damage obvious to the naked eye.

I'm not buddy's with the guys at the machine shop. They do business. Cash only. It's at least 60 bucks a pop to fix 1 thing and to adjust is another is more. an even if, i need this to work right. not modified, oem and simple.

I'll get a new ring gear as you suggested

More than even the jig you are suggesting I as acually going to pull the motor and slice open the gearbox to see what's going on.

As you said the system is simple, so should be the solution.

Please help

Stocker

If you can start the car without pressing the clutch, a) that's not safe and b) your neutral safety switch is not working. I strongly recommend you get it hooked up when you eventually fix whatever else is wrong (or when you get a few minutes).

I don't know about slicing the gearbox. Ouch. You probably meant like making a window so you can see the starter in action? That seems like it might be a good idea for a near-last resort. Is it possible (I've never checked) to disconnect the motor and just engage the starter solenoid, to see how it pokes out without spinning the gears?

You got another flywheel . . . did you reuse the ring gear or am I reading that you have this problem with TWO ring gears? Do they both look similarly worn, if so?

It seems like you have a little work to do, then report back eh.

Stixer7

[img]http://img338.imageshack.us/img33[/img
Ok this is a picture of my bare crank

I checked my flywheel teeth realy well and realised that i am only getting engagement at the edge of my teeth. virtually none within the grooves

I also discovered what may be my problem

I checked on the back of the flywheel and saw 1.6&1.8B casted on it. here is the pic:
[img]http://img163.imageshack.us/i/hpim3358.jpg/[/img
Notice the marking" 1.6&1.8B

Here is the front:
[img]http://img194.imageshack.us/i/hpim3352.jpg/[/img
I'm assuming it's of from the 1.6 & 1.6 beta 1 engine. so I am guessing the 1.6/1.8 engine plate is different also.

is their a diffecnce between the 1.8 and 2.0 beta 1 flywheels? are they interchangable?

Bommello

What year is your tib? I doubt this is the problem since I don't even think the flywheel would bolt on. But after 2000 I believe it was they changed the crankshafts. So if this flywheel was for an older tib it shouldn't fit.