Pod Air Filters Mythbusted
|
Throwing out an intricately designed component and replacing it with a $50 'performance mod' is never a good idea.
You should see these guys dyno testing a $1500 exhaust... |
Isn't this a repost? I thought you ^ posted this before
|
Yeah it's a repost, nvm. I'll never pass up an opportunity to bitterly degrade pod filters.
|
I love MCM
|
|
First, The car they're using isn't making enough power to demonstrate any real difference and at 66HP, I'm sure the stock intake flows just fine. Second, going from the first pod to the second gained 2HP. Not a significant amount, but that's almost 4%. On a 300HP car, that would be about 12HP. Decent gain going from one filter to another.
Third, "Pod filters" might be big on the upside down side of the planet, but here in the States, most people use real intakes, not a "pod filter" slapped on the MAF sensor. |
To be honest, their scientific method leaves a -lot- to be desired. 2hp is definitely within the error margin from run to run, there's no A-B-A testing, and they don't test all of the same pods on different cars.
Throwing a pod on the end of your MAF isn't an upside down thing, it's a spastic modification that is practised by 16 year old pillowstains worldwide. |
Maybe one of you guys can contact Jamie and Adam @ MythBusters and bust this myth once and for all..........
|
|
http://www.mustangevolution.com/forum/f356/t309389/
I appreciate peoples opinions but prefer facts and supporting data. Why would automotive companies invest billions to get engineers to put in a restrictive air box ? I've done the K&N filter & CAI and the only increase was noise, ram air is minimal and unreliable so real hp gains are from forced induction. Or do we start beliving in the "Vortec Cyclone " ? "HOW MUCH WILL I GAIN? – Over the years we have had testimonials from customers who have seen horsepower gains of up to 31%. Our average customer gains between 5-12 horsepower" http://www.vorteccyclone.com/boosthorsepower.html |
"Why would automotive companies invest billions to get engineers to put in a restrictive air box ?"
Answer: They don't. Billions on an airbox? really? A ton of money on the car overall... but not that much on the airbox. What do most customers want? LOW noise from the car, unless its a performance model. The intake in the XD was about 20 feet long with a huge box and another resonator somewhere else in it. My HD has a straight forward design with minimal bends etc. Do I think the XD gained a bit of umph from a new intake track, yes... and noise. The HD... still has the much better design in it with a filter I can clean. I cannot see much gain from replacing that setup What am I getting at? An intake helping that car really depends on the stock setup/design and how much performance the manufacturer sacrificed to keep the noise down with little care about hp output. BTW stock for stock the HD did make more noise under throttle than the XD did. I think hyundai realized its buyers really didn't care about the extra growl and probably pulled off slightly better mpg numbers via less pumping loss and spent less on plastic with the new design. |
lol WHS^^
Originally Posted by XGODZX
(Post 667679)
Why would automotive companies invest billions to get engineers to put in a restrictive air box ?
|
"Really" I never stated "Billions on an airbox" The statement i made is to reflect that automotive companies do spend Billions in R&D to the likes of in at the lowest year of 2009 Toyotas R&D spending was almost US$9 billion.
That is $200 million more than the second-placed company and works out at or a little over $1.1 million per hour. From that study they said five of the top 20 global R&D spenders were automotive companies with Toyota ahead of General Motors fifth (previous year 2nd), Ford eighth (6th), Honda 16th (16th) and Volkswagen 17th (19th). And in 2011 Volkswagen was reported the third largest automaker, yet it spent more than the two companies ahead of it, Toyota and General Motors. So again why would automotive companies looking to beat their competitors risk an edge to put in a restrictive air box ? The answer i don't think so.......... |
Originally Posted by XGODZX
(Post 667703)
So again why would automotive companies looking to beat their competitors risk an edge to put in a restrictive air box ?
The answer i don't think so.......... Unless you're talking about Mustang vs. Camaro, car makers don't compete with each other over 5 hp. A restrictive airbox is quieter than a non-restrictive one. Based on the fact that NVH is more of a competition than HP, I'd say most car makers spend their R&D making their airboxes MORE restrictive, not less. |
Edit: he beat me to it.. I could have sum-ed this entire post with "what he said"
You said "Why would automotive companies invest billions to get engineers to put in a restrictive air box?" Maybe you should have said "Why would automotive companies invest billions, then get their engineers to put in a restrictive air box?" something along those lines. I got what you said, but the way I read it first was hilariously silly. No one ever said they didn't invest tons of money in R&D, so grats on the googling the obvious. However, not all are after performance. An attempt to make an engine with less NVH has taken horsepower from many cars. Check out the Mazda 2.3 and that oil frothing dampener thing that spins with the crank... the 20 foot intake in my XD, the extra weight added to the 2.0 and higher BETA motors on the flywheel removing that would have made it quicker, the crazy exhaust setups that some cars have to make them quiet (again the XD and that stupid big muffler), hell remove those stupid engine covers that only add weight and make it look purdy.. there is an edge LOL, etc etc etc. I think I still have the XDs stock intake in the garage. If I do, I can take a picture of it and you can tell me if you think that idiotic thing wasn't restrictive. It was, and did what it was designed to do.. make the car very quiet when under load. Again, not everyone's priority is power for an edge if they think the customer is looking for something else. Blanket statements like you threw out are not true IMO. However, I can see that you seem to think they would never do such a thing so I am done with this goofy argument and will go off dynos. That say sometimes they help and sometimes they only make noise. |
BTW, the Mustang actually has a very restrictive tube coming off the intake that runs to a membrane on the firewall. This was done to send intake reverberations directly to the cabin to add noise and make the car sound more aggressive to the driver. I'm sure the R&D on that cost a few pennies and definitely cost a few HP. Simply eliminating that tube and blocking off the opening on the intake that the tube goes to should add back a HP or 2.
|
Just because it looks restrictive, doesn't mean that it -is- restrictive. And definitely vice versa.
A restrictive airbox is quieter than a non-restrictive one. This isn't necessarily true. In fact, those 'restrictive' looking resonators that hang off the intake provide a double service: they cancel noise AND provide a measure of resonant tuning. They work in much the same way as an intake plenum. So the presence of a resonator definitely improves power. Additionally, the intake has to perform a few other tasks: -Provide stable, repeatable airflow through the MAF and intake air temp sensors -Be of correct length and diameter for the engine -Ensure that the whole air filter gets used, rather than just the middle or the edges -Receive air from a reasonably dirt-free area of high air pressure -Provide the correct amount of intake noise for the class of car Still not convinced? Unless you're talking about Mustang vs. Camaro, car makers don't compete with each other over 5 hp. The mustang and camaro both use airboxes and intake tracts with resonators. Some other cars that use this dodgy ass, restrictive setup: Honda S2000, one of the best NA cars ever made http://image.modified.com/f/17370559...22c_engine.jpg Ferrari 599, silly engineers forgot to install pod filters [img]tp://4.bp.blogspot.com/_4gKoeTxvfro/TOKFsCyXz0I/AAAAAAAABnA/nq87h31TH3g/s1600/althonealexis.blogspot.com_Ferrari_599_GTB_Fiorano %252B%25252815%252529.jpg[/img] Corvette http://www.automotiveaddicts.com/wp-...tte-engine.jpg ...and not a single cold air intake was to be seen. I guess we know better though, eBay sellers do insist 5-10 hp gains... *edit* Forgot to include my img tags, sozzles |
^^^ I assume you've heard of the EPA? There's your answer.
|
dont forget CARB
those smug a**holes |
The pictures you used each use an intake that is as short as possible with minimal bends and resonators that are not exactly blocking airflow. Sort of like the intake that is intact in my HD. Some intakes, like the XD..... not a good idea for making power. So yes.. when the design is similar to those you posted, they probably are better than any ebay crap intake. However, if a company was going after a very quiet engine, you COULD SEE AN IMPROVEMENT.. please note, COULD depending on the design by switching to an aftermarket intake.
This is just dumb in terms of trying to make power https://www.partswebsite.com/stores/...s1/1055140.gif Not so dumb (s2000) http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...4s2a01_b01.png on a sort of funny note.. is that a cone shaped filter hiding in a box? |
Aand some successful cars that aren't governed by the EPA nor CARB
WRC winner: celica st185 http://www.gtfours.co.uk/pics/wrc/185/004.jpg British touring car championship bmw 3 series http://cdn.speedhunters.com/wp-conte...torbase_17.jpg Group N Vauxall Astra http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._4619469_n.jpg Super touring BMW E36 http://www.e30m3project.com/e30m3per...en/engine1.jpg Still seeing a distinct lack of pod filters guys |
im seeing a lack of air filters any ways
|
The EPA & CARB are less likely not to give a No 2's about what going in rather what's coming out and that's where most of the restriction and power losses/gains are made....
|
lol if you believe that try getting your car to pass carb testing
they would want to crush your car |
Yes, CARB wields enormous influence over the emissions requirements and CARB's policies have also influenced EU emissions standards.
Here, We are aligned with the EU [European emission standards]and http://www.transport.wa.gov.au/licensing/20535.asp |
actually it does, cuz im pretty sure this tiny place called "the united states" tends to buy a pretty large amount of vehicles
thus, car manufactures have to consider the standards of CARB and the EPA when releasing a vehicle if it intends to sell said vehicle here get pulled over with a homemade CAI or even a ebay special in california and they can impound your vehicle here is a nice list of places where CARB is either in action or being brought into action: New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Maine, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Pennsylvania, Vermont, New Mexico, Oregon, Washington, Maryland, Florida, California and others are considering it i can almost guarantee a good chunk of those states sell more cars than whatever country you live in so yes i can damn near guarantee that CARB influences EU standards |
Yes, i guess the 37 other states will follow - the extra state will be China the largest foreign holder of U.S. Treasury securities, China currently has $1.132 trillion in American debt as your debt gets bigger more they will own.
Flame suit on http://www.gizmodiva.com/entry_image...ers-Suit-1.jpg |
Originally Posted by wheel_of_steel
(Post 667927)
Aand some successful cars that aren't governed by the EPA nor CARB
Still seeing a distinct lack of pod filters guys The "pod filters" are in the CARBON FIBER NON-FACTORY airboxes. |
Originally Posted by XGODZX
(Post 667939)
Yes, i guess the 37 other states will follow - the extra state will be China the largest foreign holder of U.S. Treasury securities, China currently has $1.132 trillion in American debt as your debt gets bigger more they will own.
Flame suit gtfo we can take over your entire country with nothing but some fishing line, the boy scouts, and some "inner city" 4th graders does it make you mad that we OWE more money than your entire countrys net worth and yet still go on just fine? |
The "pod filters" are in the CARBON FIBER NON-FACTORY airboxes. Perhaps on the Group N astra, I mean you just can't see a filter either way, but the rest of the pitured race cars have visible filter clips around the squared edges of the airbox. OEM intakes simply make sense: -Most panel filters have more surface area than most pod filters - not only that but pod filters are rarely utilising the whole filter -Intake resonators tangibly increase power output and reduce noise. -The OEM spent more R&D time with computational flow dynamics programs than any eBay seller, or any of us. With precious few exceptions, every new car and every successful racing car will use a panel filter and 'restrictive' intake resplendent with bends, sharp edges, resonators, and intake snorkels that can't be drawn in MSpaint. does it make you mad that we OWE more money than your entire countrys net worth and yet still go on just fine? country's* When I get angry, I go joyride the ambulance for free. |
To get back on track here is a nice explanation by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_air_intake.
P.S Sorry MacGyver, not mad nor hopefully anything personal intended but can you get your guys to get your dollar up over ours as it's killing our exporting :lol2: |
Originally Posted by wheel_of_steel
(Post 667956)
Perhaps on the Group N astra, I mean you just can't see a filter either way, but the rest of the pitured race cars have visible filter clips around the squared edges of the airbox.
OEM intakes simply make sense: -Most panel filters have more surface area than most pod filters - not only that but pod filters are rarely utilising the whole filter -Intake resonators tangibly increase power output and reduce noise. -The OEM spent more R&D time with computational flow dynamics programs than any eBay seller, or any of us. With precious few exceptions, every new car and every successful racing car will use a panel filter and 'restrictive' intake resplendent with bends, sharp edges, resonators, and intake snorkels that can't be drawn in MSpaint. You've very obviously never been inside AEM's facility. I have. The R&D they have there is probably MORE extensive than any OEM. |
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/fa...intake-558437/
http://www.tricktuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226 I like their statement "This shows how easy it is to make a dyno graph that "proves" that you made hp. Reading the above info will explain why this is BS when you factor everything in." AEM level of R&D ? "Back in December of '03, AEM was looking for a donor YJ with either a 4.0L or 2.5L so they could do the R&D for their Brute Force cold air intake system. After speaking with Damon from AEM, I agreed to let them borrow my YJ for ~11 days while I was in Australia visiting ARB. Anyway, I towed my YJ up to the AEM facility, dropped it off, then returned for it 11 days later. I saw the dyno printout numbers of the before & after AEM intake. AEM also eventually sent me a free system down the road when they went into full blown production. After I receieved it - I decided to sell it instead of installing it." http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f12/w...ystems-749286/ |
^^^ Perhaps I'm missing something? Are you saying that because they had the Jeep for 11 days, they don't do R&D or are you saying there's something wrong with their intake? I read that guys post and all it says is that he sold the intake.
Like I said, I've been there. The facility is the size of several football fields and that's just the R&D, not the warehouse. |
I'm not knocking the size of their R&D area, quality nor that they doing any R&D but more the level of R&D as you compared as them probably MORE extensive an original equipment manufacturer that i assume you have been to also.
11 days i guess in your books is extensive R&D as i guess it only took Toyota 12 months to built the FT-86 prototype and another 2 years to get into production so each and every part would have gone through extensive R&D. |
They had the car for 11 days, that's not how long they spent on R&D... and Toyota designed an entire car from scratch, not an intake. Oh, and yes, I have been to Hyundai USA.
|
Getting back on track ,read the thread http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/fa...intake-558437/ and try to debunk it....
|
Honestly guys, who cares. I think most people that install an intake don't do it expecting a huge HP increase. I didn't. I just like the fact that my car "sounds" fast, but is actually slow as molasses. lol.
:beercheers: |
Originally Posted by pas1216
(Post 667993)
Honestly guys, who cares. I think most people that install an intake don't do it expecting a huge HP increase. I didn't. I just like the fact that my car "sounds" fast, but is actually slow as molasses. lol.
:beercheers: Oh yeah, well my car sounds faster than your car. |
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:39 PM. |
© 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands