Overheating & Smoke
08-12-2009, 03:33 PM
#1
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First to the mods, yes I have searched and read some topics that give me an idea of what might be wrong. Nothing specific enough since the place I took it couldn't find anything wrong.
I just had the timing belt and water pump done at NTB. However, this overheating had been happening prior to this, just Very ocasionaly. The car will drive fine, temp guage will sometimes creep up a hair, but is usually dead center while driving. Then, when I get home and am sitting in the driveway, or sitting at a light, it will start to go up, 3/4 of the way up, but never to red. Sometimes it only goes up a tiny bit past center. When I start driving, it will go back down, but there will be white smoke ocasionally from the tailpipe, depending if it has been idleing at the light long enough. But the smoke is fairly brief, and then goes away, and the temp goes back down as I drive.
I explained all this to the guys at NTB, and their 'master tech' could not get it to overheat for him. They drove it, and let it idle for 45min and claimed nothing. They checked for leaks, could find none. They did that test for the head gasket where they put some special liquid in, and that passed with no leaks. So they spent all day and could find nothing wrong. Well I drove it home, and everything was fine, even at stop lights, until I pulled in the driveway, sat and watched the temp guage go all the way to 3/4 up. Then when I would accelerate, smoke would come out of the tailpipe for a couple seconds, the amount seemed to be related to how long I sat letting it idle/overheat. They also checked the fans, as did I and they are coming on properly. The thermostat is new also. But, after driving it, and then watching it overheat in my driveway, I can hear the fluid boiling, and the fluid level is on Low, not much in at all. How much should be in when it's hot like that?
So if I'm burning coolant, and suposedly the head gasket is ok, what might be my problem? Anything to check, or ideas would be greatly appreciated. If this is an expensive deal, I think I'm done with her.
I just had the timing belt and water pump done at NTB. However, this overheating had been happening prior to this, just Very ocasionaly. The car will drive fine, temp guage will sometimes creep up a hair, but is usually dead center while driving. Then, when I get home and am sitting in the driveway, or sitting at a light, it will start to go up, 3/4 of the way up, but never to red. Sometimes it only goes up a tiny bit past center. When I start driving, it will go back down, but there will be white smoke ocasionally from the tailpipe, depending if it has been idleing at the light long enough. But the smoke is fairly brief, and then goes away, and the temp goes back down as I drive.
I explained all this to the guys at NTB, and their 'master tech' could not get it to overheat for him. They drove it, and let it idle for 45min and claimed nothing. They checked for leaks, could find none. They did that test for the head gasket where they put some special liquid in, and that passed with no leaks. So they spent all day and could find nothing wrong. Well I drove it home, and everything was fine, even at stop lights, until I pulled in the driveway, sat and watched the temp guage go all the way to 3/4 up. Then when I would accelerate, smoke would come out of the tailpipe for a couple seconds, the amount seemed to be related to how long I sat letting it idle/overheat. They also checked the fans, as did I and they are coming on properly. The thermostat is new also. But, after driving it, and then watching it overheat in my driveway, I can hear the fluid boiling, and the fluid level is on Low, not much in at all. How much should be in when it's hot like that?
So if I'm burning coolant, and suposedly the head gasket is ok, what might be my problem? Anything to check, or ideas would be greatly appreciated. If this is an expensive deal, I think I'm done with her.
08-12-2009, 05:28 PM
#3
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
QUOTE (Ericy321 @ Aug 12 2009, 06:31 PM)
What is NTB?
Where are you located?
Any mods or anything that would relate?
Where are you located?
Any mods or anything that would relate?
National Tire & Battery, but it's a full service center, they do all the stuff normal places like Midas or any national chain does. I had them do the water pump and timing belt, and am happy with that. I live in central Ohio and there are no mods on the car, I even had taken the cold air intake off, so it's all stock right now.
08-12-2009, 08:09 PM
#4
Super Moderator
IF they really checked everything they said, then your car must be fine, and you are imagining the smoke.
The coolant overflow reservoir should generally fill back up again, about to where you filled it the last time, once the car cools off. With the *radiator* cool, when you remove the cap and look in the top of the radiator, is it full of fluid?
Now for the basic questions:
You ARE using a 50/50 mix of water and GREEN coolant, right?
You are sure the water pump is running and pumping properly?
Do both upper and lower hoses get hot, when the car is running hot?
The fans kick on when the car is running hot?
The oil, she is normal oil color, not like coffee w/ lots of creamer, right?
How old are the coolant and heater hoses?
Get a friend to drive alongside, and verify that the smoke is NOT coming from under the car. If it's white coolant smoke with a sweet smell coming from your tailpipe, you have a bad head gasket or else something very strange. If it ends up coming from under the car, you might have the (very common) problem of a leaky seal at a hose joint. The spring clamps Hyundai uses sometimes go south. I know on my car, occasionally, the upper radiator hose leaks a few drops right at the thermostat housing. You would see a buildup of nasty crusty stuff somewhere under a hose (radiator, heater, or crossover) somewhere in the engine bay. This may require a very close inspection in odd places to locate.
STOP having other people work on your car! You can replace everything you said they replaced, without paying $30 to $80+ per hour in labor fees! Plus you can know it was done, and done properly, with high quality parts.
FYI: the RD's temperature gauge is only one half-step better than an idiot light. Have you ever noticed that it tends to stay in the same spot unless the car is overheating quickly? That's because whenever the temperature is somewhere in the "normal" range, the gauge will be held in the same spot. It is NOT really a meter, it is an indicator. So when you see it getting warm, Turn on the heater full-blast quick!
If you bought the car used, it may have overheated badly at some point before you owned it. This could cause a warping of the cylinder head or (less likely) engine block, or a crack in the head gasket, which ONLY show up when the engine is overheating. If they pressure tested the head gasket when the engine was cold, it might not fail the test. Oh, and a head gasket is more advanced than changing a tire, but you can DIY provided you do your homework first!
Final suspicion for now: it could be that you are having an overheating problem AND burning oil. Are you certain there is not an excessive amount of oil consumption, and that the smoke is white (coolant) and not pale blue (oil)?
The coolant overflow reservoir should generally fill back up again, about to where you filled it the last time, once the car cools off. With the *radiator* cool, when you remove the cap and look in the top of the radiator, is it full of fluid?
Now for the basic questions:
You ARE using a 50/50 mix of water and GREEN coolant, right?
You are sure the water pump is running and pumping properly?
Do both upper and lower hoses get hot, when the car is running hot?
The fans kick on when the car is running hot?
The oil, she is normal oil color, not like coffee w/ lots of creamer, right?
How old are the coolant and heater hoses?
Get a friend to drive alongside, and verify that the smoke is NOT coming from under the car. If it's white coolant smoke with a sweet smell coming from your tailpipe, you have a bad head gasket or else something very strange. If it ends up coming from under the car, you might have the (very common) problem of a leaky seal at a hose joint. The spring clamps Hyundai uses sometimes go south. I know on my car, occasionally, the upper radiator hose leaks a few drops right at the thermostat housing. You would see a buildup of nasty crusty stuff somewhere under a hose (radiator, heater, or crossover) somewhere in the engine bay. This may require a very close inspection in odd places to locate.
STOP having other people work on your car! You can replace everything you said they replaced, without paying $30 to $80+ per hour in labor fees! Plus you can know it was done, and done properly, with high quality parts.
FYI: the RD's temperature gauge is only one half-step better than an idiot light. Have you ever noticed that it tends to stay in the same spot unless the car is overheating quickly? That's because whenever the temperature is somewhere in the "normal" range, the gauge will be held in the same spot. It is NOT really a meter, it is an indicator. So when you see it getting warm, Turn on the heater full-blast quick!
If you bought the car used, it may have overheated badly at some point before you owned it. This could cause a warping of the cylinder head or (less likely) engine block, or a crack in the head gasket, which ONLY show up when the engine is overheating. If they pressure tested the head gasket when the engine was cold, it might not fail the test. Oh, and a head gasket is more advanced than changing a tire, but you can DIY provided you do your homework first!
Final suspicion for now: it could be that you are having an overheating problem AND burning oil. Are you certain there is not an excessive amount of oil consumption, and that the smoke is white (coolant) and not pale blue (oil)?
08-12-2009, 10:08 PM
#5
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The coolant and heater hoses are original as far as I know. The fans were replaced at one point, and the thermostat was replaced last fall. It is my brothers car, and it started to overheat on him on the way to school last fall because the thermostat stuck. Once that was fixed, we had no overheating problems until this spring/summer. Up until this point, the current overheating had happened maybe 3 times total, with months in between occurrences, and never this bad.
It is the proper 50/50 mix, green coolant. Once the car cooled down, and I could touch the radiator, the reservoir was right in between the low & full lines, so it was right. I also took the lid off the radiator, and it was full. Both fans do kick on when it is running hot, I think that is why it’s keeping it at ¾ on the temp gauge and not going all the way up. I checked the oil, and it did not show any signs of water or discoloration in it, just the normal dark brown.
I don’t know for sure if the new water pump is running and pumping correctly, I just assumed since it was new. How should I check that? They said that after they had it idle for 45min, they put it up on the rack and didn’t see any leaks, I will check tomorrow myself, but have seen no drips that are obvious yet. I also have not felt the radiator hoses for their temps, but will tomorrow.
As far as the smoke, it does not smoke when I’m driving it. The only time it will smoke is this scenario: I drove home, about 25min drive, and had the car at 55-60mph for a good half of that time. The first half of the drive was slower, in town with stop lights that I sat at and had no overheating, no smoke from the tailpipe (my brother was following). So everything was fine, it drove great, idled good, no smoke, temp was right where it should be. Then I pull in the driveway, put it in park, and by the time I counted 60 seconds, it had krept up to the ¾ point. It never went higher, and it would go back down a little at some points. So as far as the smoke, when the car is overheating, like when I was in the driveway, or at one of the stoplights yesterday, I will rev the engine, or start to drive, and there is a puff of smoke for a couple seconds, maybe a few seconds one time, and then it clears out and there is no smoke what so ever. If I let it come back down and idle for another minute or so, it might puff some smoke again the next time I rev it up, as long as it’s overheating. But the car has to be driven awhile prior, and at decent speed to get it to overheat, it seems, which is needed for it to smoke. It really acts like it's burning something off when I give it gas as its overheating. But only for a few seconds if that, just one decent cloud comes out and I can keep reving and giving gas and there is no smoke and the temp stays at 3/4, or eventually comes down slightly.
The car used to burn oil, when cheap low grade oil was used, but I’m using Valvoline high mileage synthetic and it’s not low, and doesn’t leak anymore that I know of. I feel like the smoke seems directly related to when it is overheating, so coolant seems to make sense, since it never did that before when it wasn’t overheating. So if it was oil it would have been present before all this. But if it was a leaky head gasket, why would it only do it at that specific time? I’ve seen several cars with bad head gaskets and its lots of smoke, all the time and the car runs like crap. The car runs to well it seems for something like that, but then again, I don’t really know. How else can coolant get in and be burnt, and why just when its been driven, hot and idling?
Could it be some sensor? Like, a temp sensor be bad, telling the car to burn an incorrect fuel/air mix? Could the thermostat be sticking again? How could I check if the water pump is working properly?
Sorry for such a long post, it’s just confusing my brain.
It is the proper 50/50 mix, green coolant. Once the car cooled down, and I could touch the radiator, the reservoir was right in between the low & full lines, so it was right. I also took the lid off the radiator, and it was full. Both fans do kick on when it is running hot, I think that is why it’s keeping it at ¾ on the temp gauge and not going all the way up. I checked the oil, and it did not show any signs of water or discoloration in it, just the normal dark brown.
I don’t know for sure if the new water pump is running and pumping correctly, I just assumed since it was new. How should I check that? They said that after they had it idle for 45min, they put it up on the rack and didn’t see any leaks, I will check tomorrow myself, but have seen no drips that are obvious yet. I also have not felt the radiator hoses for their temps, but will tomorrow.
As far as the smoke, it does not smoke when I’m driving it. The only time it will smoke is this scenario: I drove home, about 25min drive, and had the car at 55-60mph for a good half of that time. The first half of the drive was slower, in town with stop lights that I sat at and had no overheating, no smoke from the tailpipe (my brother was following). So everything was fine, it drove great, idled good, no smoke, temp was right where it should be. Then I pull in the driveway, put it in park, and by the time I counted 60 seconds, it had krept up to the ¾ point. It never went higher, and it would go back down a little at some points. So as far as the smoke, when the car is overheating, like when I was in the driveway, or at one of the stoplights yesterday, I will rev the engine, or start to drive, and there is a puff of smoke for a couple seconds, maybe a few seconds one time, and then it clears out and there is no smoke what so ever. If I let it come back down and idle for another minute or so, it might puff some smoke again the next time I rev it up, as long as it’s overheating. But the car has to be driven awhile prior, and at decent speed to get it to overheat, it seems, which is needed for it to smoke. It really acts like it's burning something off when I give it gas as its overheating. But only for a few seconds if that, just one decent cloud comes out and I can keep reving and giving gas and there is no smoke and the temp stays at 3/4, or eventually comes down slightly.
The car used to burn oil, when cheap low grade oil was used, but I’m using Valvoline high mileage synthetic and it’s not low, and doesn’t leak anymore that I know of. I feel like the smoke seems directly related to when it is overheating, so coolant seems to make sense, since it never did that before when it wasn’t overheating. So if it was oil it would have been present before all this. But if it was a leaky head gasket, why would it only do it at that specific time? I’ve seen several cars with bad head gaskets and its lots of smoke, all the time and the car runs like crap. The car runs to well it seems for something like that, but then again, I don’t really know. How else can coolant get in and be burnt, and why just when its been driven, hot and idling?
Could it be some sensor? Like, a temp sensor be bad, telling the car to burn an incorrect fuel/air mix? Could the thermostat be sticking again? How could I check if the water pump is working properly?
Sorry for such a long post, it’s just confusing my brain.
08-13-2009, 08:55 AM
#6
Super Moderator
Head gasket: unless it's bad, pretty much oil CAN'T get in and evaporate in the cylinders.
Oil: leaks don't get better. Were you saying you are certain the smoke comes from the tailpipe? If you can get the cloud when the car is stationary (sounds like you can) get back there and sniff it. It's probably not so good for the lungs, but you should be able to tell with just a whiff, whether it's oil or coolant. A puff of smoke only when you rev it really sounds like burning oil to me.
OH! Have you done a compression & leakdown test? That would tell you for pretty-sure if the car needs valve seals or a ring job (or a new (used) engine). How many miles on the engine?
Thermostat: pull and test it. A new one can fail. This involves a pot of water on the stove, and a thermometer. Very simple.
If both hoses get hot, the thermostat is opening at least partially and the pump is pumping at least a little.
One other thought comes to mind: the radiator could be partially clogged, internally or in the fins. Are the fins full of dead bugs? It's a slight hassle but may be worth it to try to see if the inside of the radiator is clogged. I'd have to think about it for a while to come up with a jury-rigged test for that, or you might ask your mechanic.
It *could* be anything. It's not. These cars are as simple as a fuel-injected car can be. It's something simple, or a combination of simple things.
Oil: leaks don't get better. Were you saying you are certain the smoke comes from the tailpipe? If you can get the cloud when the car is stationary (sounds like you can) get back there and sniff it. It's probably not so good for the lungs, but you should be able to tell with just a whiff, whether it's oil or coolant. A puff of smoke only when you rev it really sounds like burning oil to me.
OH! Have you done a compression & leakdown test? That would tell you for pretty-sure if the car needs valve seals or a ring job (or a new (used) engine). How many miles on the engine?
Thermostat: pull and test it. A new one can fail. This involves a pot of water on the stove, and a thermometer. Very simple.
If both hoses get hot, the thermostat is opening at least partially and the pump is pumping at least a little.
One other thought comes to mind: the radiator could be partially clogged, internally or in the fins. Are the fins full of dead bugs? It's a slight hassle but may be worth it to try to see if the inside of the radiator is clogged. I'd have to think about it for a while to come up with a jury-rigged test for that, or you might ask your mechanic.
It *could* be anything. It's not. These cars are as simple as a fuel-injected car can be. It's something simple, or a combination of simple things.
08-13-2009, 01:53 PM
#7
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If it was oil burning, why does it ONLY happen when the car is overheating and idling?
I just drove it, had no problems as usual, drove for 15min, came back parked it, and waited. While the temp was still normal, I reved it, and no smoke, did this several times. No smoke while the temp is normal. As soon as it would kreep up to 3/4 or maybe less, I would give it gas, and there would be one puff of smoke, and thats it.
So why would there be smoke from oil, only when it is overheating? Well for that matter, why would coolant burn only at that time? If there was a coolant leak, why would it only burn then? Could the coolant simply be getting to hot and boiling over into something allowing it to get burnt through the exhaust?
I checked both upper and lower coolant pipes to the radiator, and both get hot. Sorry to be a moron, but where is the thermostat located, and whats the procedure for pulling it out & testing it? Could a bad thermostat be opening at the wrong temp? Or could some other sensor be reading the coolant temp wrong?
(Edit: searched and found the thermostat location, but what should I know about pulling it out? Coolant need to be drained completely?)
I also wanted to mention, that this time when it overheated, and went up to 3/4, I waited, and heard the second cooling fan kick on, and eventually the temp went back down to just slightly above the mid mark. It did this twice, so the second fan does come on and cool it off, but it seems like it's not coming on soon enough to prevent it from going up to 3/4, does that sound right?
How do I check to see if the water pump is working properly?
Thanks for your help so far :-)
I just drove it, had no problems as usual, drove for 15min, came back parked it, and waited. While the temp was still normal, I reved it, and no smoke, did this several times. No smoke while the temp is normal. As soon as it would kreep up to 3/4 or maybe less, I would give it gas, and there would be one puff of smoke, and thats it.
So why would there be smoke from oil, only when it is overheating? Well for that matter, why would coolant burn only at that time? If there was a coolant leak, why would it only burn then? Could the coolant simply be getting to hot and boiling over into something allowing it to get burnt through the exhaust?
I checked both upper and lower coolant pipes to the radiator, and both get hot. Sorry to be a moron, but where is the thermostat located, and whats the procedure for pulling it out & testing it? Could a bad thermostat be opening at the wrong temp? Or could some other sensor be reading the coolant temp wrong?
(Edit: searched and found the thermostat location, but what should I know about pulling it out? Coolant need to be drained completely?)
I also wanted to mention, that this time when it overheated, and went up to 3/4, I waited, and heard the second cooling fan kick on, and eventually the temp went back down to just slightly above the mid mark. It did this twice, so the second fan does come on and cool it off, but it seems like it's not coming on soon enough to prevent it from going up to 3/4, does that sound right?
How do I check to see if the water pump is working properly?
Thanks for your help so far :-)
08-13-2009, 02:32 PM
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Boston
Posts: 1,932
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vehicle: 2006 Pontiac GTO
The second fan usually only comes on when you turn A/C on. It probably comes on with very high coolant temperatures also apparently, but the car should never overheat with just the driver's side fan.
The coolant gauge is not linear at all. It stays in the middle until a pretty high temperature, around 225-235F, then quickly moves up, with the red area being around 250F. Keep this in mind, don't think that just because the needle went back you're fine and dandy, you're still at around 225F, much higher than the normal 195-205F.
Since the fan turning on helps decrease the temperatures, I doubt it's the thermostat..
Maybe your radiator fins got very dirty over the years and just need a good cleaning? Since you're only overheating sometimes, I would rule out anything major..
Also, whet oil are you using? Perhaps when you're overheating it just gets too thin and you burn a lot more of it?
The coolant gauge is not linear at all. It stays in the middle until a pretty high temperature, around 225-235F, then quickly moves up, with the red area being around 250F. Keep this in mind, don't think that just because the needle went back you're fine and dandy, you're still at around 225F, much higher than the normal 195-205F.
Since the fan turning on helps decrease the temperatures, I doubt it's the thermostat..
Maybe your radiator fins got very dirty over the years and just need a good cleaning? Since you're only overheating sometimes, I would rule out anything major..
Also, whet oil are you using? Perhaps when you're overheating it just gets too thin and you burn a lot more of it?
08-13-2009, 02:34 PM
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Los Lunas, New Mexico, USA.
Posts: 34,642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vehicle: 2001 Hyundai Tiburon, 2004 Kia Sorento, 2010 Kia Soul
Well, if the engine is extra hot, it'll burn off any oil that much easier. It's hard to see engine smoke while the car is hot and MOVING, but when idling, it is not.
Wind.
The thermostat is on the engine, you'll see where 2 wires go to sensors on the front drivers corner of the engine, and there is a small radiator hose there, a 90 degree portion, that's where it is.
Your temperature sender could be bad also, causing the entire mess.
To check and see if your pump is working, look at it. If it's turning and not leaking or making horrible noises, go squeeze a radiator hose while it's runnnig and not TOO hot as to burn yourself. I fyou feel fluid pushing through, it's working.
Wind.
The thermostat is on the engine, you'll see where 2 wires go to sensors on the front drivers corner of the engine, and there is a small radiator hose there, a 90 degree portion, that's where it is.
Your temperature sender could be bad also, causing the entire mess.
To check and see if your pump is working, look at it. If it's turning and not leaking or making horrible noises, go squeeze a radiator hose while it's runnnig and not TOO hot as to burn yourself. I fyou feel fluid pushing through, it's working.
08-13-2009, 02:43 PM
#10
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are two sensors on the thermostat housing. Which one is the temp sender, and what is the other one? Any way to test those? Are they expensive? Both names so I know what to order would be appreciated.
I will check the water pump later tonight to see if its pumping.
As far as the thermostat, could it be opening at the wrong temp, or sticking untill it gets very hot?
I am going to clean the fins of the radiator tonight or tomorrow, and pull the thermostat to see if it is opening at 180 degrees like it should be.
If I replace the thermostat or find it is working properly, and I clean the radiator fins, and replace those two sensors on the thermostat housing.... what else is left?
I will check the water pump later tonight to see if its pumping.
As far as the thermostat, could it be opening at the wrong temp, or sticking untill it gets very hot?
I am going to clean the fins of the radiator tonight or tomorrow, and pull the thermostat to see if it is opening at 180 degrees like it should be.
If I replace the thermostat or find it is working properly, and I clean the radiator fins, and replace those two sensors on the thermostat housing.... what else is left?