new idea
07-04-2001, 04:28 AM
#11
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I think I will save Random some work here... and tell you that if you go to www.fxtreme.org and look under links and find alpine industries. They have a preety good explanation of the working and use of a turbo.
07-04-2001, 08:09 AM
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07-05-2001, 06:04 AM
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Jibber and Random:
I don't know how H202 (hydrogen peroxide) breaks down, but it is very caustic and would most likely react with the gasoline before it would seperate into some oxygen compound.
Water seperates at an extremely high temperature, around 1500 farenheit, I think. I searched the internet, but could not find an exact figure. It is a liquid at room temp and pressure, whereas nitrous is a gas. You would put a good deal of energy into just getting water in vapor form (212 F) and then breaking the covalent bonds. Nitrous is already a gas at STP (standard temperature and pressure), so all that engine heat goes into separating it, not in changing phase from liquid to gas. Misting the water would help, but you will never get an engine to do with water what nitrous does.
That's also why water separation is done with zinc and copper electrodes slowly, rather than with temperature. It's just 1000% easier to do it that way. the temps are too high.
hope this helps, and damn, where's my Chemistry book smile.gif
later,
AC
I don't know how H202 (hydrogen peroxide) breaks down, but it is very caustic and would most likely react with the gasoline before it would seperate into some oxygen compound.
Water seperates at an extremely high temperature, around 1500 farenheit, I think. I searched the internet, but could not find an exact figure. It is a liquid at room temp and pressure, whereas nitrous is a gas. You would put a good deal of energy into just getting water in vapor form (212 F) and then breaking the covalent bonds. Nitrous is already a gas at STP (standard temperature and pressure), so all that engine heat goes into separating it, not in changing phase from liquid to gas. Misting the water would help, but you will never get an engine to do with water what nitrous does.
That's also why water separation is done with zinc and copper electrodes slowly, rather than with temperature. It's just 1000% easier to do it that way. the temps are too high.
hope this helps, and damn, where's my Chemistry book smile.gif
later,
AC
07-05-2001, 08:00 AM
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Pressure helps in breaking the bonds between H and O. Your combustion chamber has temps in excess of 1500 degrees plus 11 times atsmopheric pressure, so water will seperate.
However, you are correct, Nitrous is 1000% easier than water, and tuning is easier. Water is mainly added to cool the intake air charge and the water vapor (not gas) also raises the octane level of the air/fuel mixture, which allows higher boost.
Water is mainly added for these reasons...not as a combustion aid like Nitrous.
[ July 05, 2001: Message edited by: Random ]
[ July 05, 2001: Message edited by: Random ]
However, you are correct, Nitrous is 1000% easier than water, and tuning is easier. Water is mainly added to cool the intake air charge and the water vapor (not gas) also raises the octane level of the air/fuel mixture, which allows higher boost.
Water is mainly added for these reasons...not as a combustion aid like Nitrous.
[ July 05, 2001: Message edited by: Random ]
[ July 05, 2001: Message edited by: Random ]
07-06-2001, 12:10 AM
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Random,
I didn't find the exact figures, but I dug up my old Thermodynamics book and looked at the steam tables. For water vapor, they go up to 1400 F at atmospheric pressure and up to 2000 F at 14.7 psi and up.
So at a 10:1 compression ratio, the even with high temps, the water probably won't split. The pressure in this case helps keep the water in gas form. Now I guess if the split point is 2000 F you could get your engine that hot, but the melting point of Aluminum is 1220 F, so it probably wouldn't be a good idea. smile.gif
Hope this helps,
AC
I didn't find the exact figures, but I dug up my old Thermodynamics book and looked at the steam tables. For water vapor, they go up to 1400 F at atmospheric pressure and up to 2000 F at 14.7 psi and up.
So at a 10:1 compression ratio, the even with high temps, the water probably won't split. The pressure in this case helps keep the water in gas form. Now I guess if the split point is 2000 F you could get your engine that hot, but the melting point of Aluminum is 1220 F, so it probably wouldn't be a good idea. smile.gif
Hope this helps,
AC
07-06-2001, 02:12 AM
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U R correct, I stated it backwards. My apologies.
What I meant was the pressure of the combustion chamber helps raise the heat, rather than the pressure helps break down the water.
What I meant was the pressure of the combustion chamber helps raise the heat, rather than the pressure helps break down the water.
07-06-2001, 04:59 PM
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another new idea......
what would happen if you drilled holes throught out your exhast system (between headers and cat, between cat and muffler)? would this give you better airflow(better exceleration), like if you got bigger piping?
what would happen if you drilled holes throught out your exhast system (between headers and cat, between cat and muffler)? would this give you better airflow(better exceleration), like if you got bigger piping?
07-08-2001, 11:08 PM
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jibber,
I think N2 would work as a cooling agent only. It is fairly inert in that form, so no chemical reactions would happen (unlike the splitting of N2 and O in Nitrous). However, the gas would not hurt anything. It would cool down the intake charge and probably inhibit detonation a bit.
I think the downside is that it is expensive (and if you have the fogger setup, might as well get the Oxygen in nitrous) and if you just need intake cooling, you can go with water injection or methanol.
As for the exhaust holes, it would increase the flow a bit, but it would severely affect back-pressure (you would have none, which translates to lower torque). Also, emmissions would go out the window and you'd probably get a Check Engine Light because the downstream O2 sensor (after the Cat) would get weird readins.
I know of people who drilled holes in their mufflers for more flow and did so without any problems. But where to drill and how, I can't help you with.
hope this helps,
AC
I think N2 would work as a cooling agent only. It is fairly inert in that form, so no chemical reactions would happen (unlike the splitting of N2 and O in Nitrous). However, the gas would not hurt anything. It would cool down the intake charge and probably inhibit detonation a bit.
I think the downside is that it is expensive (and if you have the fogger setup, might as well get the Oxygen in nitrous) and if you just need intake cooling, you can go with water injection or methanol.
As for the exhaust holes, it would increase the flow a bit, but it would severely affect back-pressure (you would have none, which translates to lower torque). Also, emmissions would go out the window and you'd probably get a Check Engine Light because the downstream O2 sensor (after the Cat) would get weird readins.
I know of people who drilled holes in their mufflers for more flow and did so without any problems. But where to drill and how, I can't help you with.
hope this helps,
AC