Change your timing belts people, or you will get owned.gif The prior owners of this car found out that the belt won't last much more than 165k miles.

https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/.../missing-1.jpg

This is part of my standard transmission swap, and I am having difficulty resisting the urge to make the engine breathe better. So...

https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...ics/Closer.jpg
https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...ookinggood.jpg

The thing must not have been running fast... The pistons look good and the valves don't even all look bent. The ones that are, aren't bent much:

https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...cs/Piston1.jpg
https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...esbentNnot.jpg

This is what the chambers look like. Big valves are intake, small are exhaust. ALL are pretty badly shrouded, and there is a cliff beside the exhaust valves.
https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...nalChamber.jpg

Closeup of shrouding
https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...udedValves.jpg

So... here we go!

First question: how much do I take off to unshroud the valves? Should I take the ridges all the way down, or should I just smooth / make the angles less severe? I know not to mess with the quench area, but I'm thinking I should be okay taking a little relief right up to the edge of the head gasket on the sides.

And if I take too much material, well, this did come off a 1.8L engine, and I have the pistons...

How much material do I have to remove if I install the 1.8L pistons, in order to not raise my compression that much? I really really REALLY don't care to pay for premium pump gas, and constant octane booster addition is out of the question.

Lessee here, volume of the chamber, swept volume, volume of added dish to make the difference between 10:1 and 11:1, hmm...

Very nice pics. fing02.gif Lots of detail.

Looks like you got off easy and can just replace the valves if you want. Perhaps you should replace the valves first and and make sure you can get it running before you start modding it...Be a waste to do all the work and and find its not going to run.

LOL check my transmission swap thread for the reasons that this car is NEVER going to run again. Aside from the fact that it would mean changing 2 transmissions at the cost of an extra 15+ hours working in my driveway. I dunno. If the flexplate will work on the 1.8, it's theoretically possible, but right now it's not looking like it'd be worth all that effort just for maybe $1000. I'm pretty sure I can sell off at least what I paid for the car in parts, and if I break even and come out with a standard transmission, bored intake manifold and throttle body, and ported & polished head, I'm going to call that a good buy.

fing02.gif

The pics: I do photography for part of my job... to me, they are sub-par, and I blame the camera. The camera was free, though, so you won't hear me complaining too much!

edit: oh yeah, and my driver car just got a brand-new stock exhaust manifold and cat due to the manifold being cracked and replaced under warranty. So at the same time, I got a fresh, not-so-clogged catalytic converter. The manifold on the parts car is also cracked. 1 more reason not to rebuild the car. Maybe. We'll see. If I put the auto in a standard car, the harness is not so simple to correct, as it is when going from auto to standard.

I'm still confused bro...

You're modding your car, you have a DD that is not this car (GOOD!!!) but you don't want to pay the extra $2.00 ($3.00 max) per fill up for 93 octane?

BTW, those pistons in that block look like ass. The cooling channels are all crapped up, and who knows what's up with (or in) the oil system... crazy.gif

You've got some options with this thing, dude. If it were me, I'd do like coal forge did with his and strip that sucka out, make it ultra light, build the motor and race it on the weekends. Then again, his is a DD

any used piston is going to be ugly when it's pulled from a motor that had some use on it eh? Get the motor dipped and magnafluxed, blueprint, balance and boost. Fun. Just... fun for someone else.

What is the confusion? I am modding my DD because the parts fell in my lap, not because I set out to do a full-tilt build-up. ... and it looks like I can get a couple thousand dollars worth of mods done, by me, for almost a break-even. The mods are mostly because inefficiency pains me and if I can stamp it out (like smoothing a nasty valve throat area) I would like to if it's not too much trouble. And since I'm already in here...

If you want to hear the truly crazy long-term idea, it involves sectioning about 3 feet out of the back of the car. I know of a certain mechanic who builds rock crawlers called Crazy Dave, who would be giving an assist on that one. lmao.gif

The gas, just makes my eye twitch thinking about paying more for it. I've NEVER had a car that took 93, on purpose. When I see the price difference, I think I would get depressed remembering when I bought the cheap stuff, even if it's 10% more zoomy with the higher compression. I dunno though. I just might get bitten by the bug when all this stuff comes together. We'll see.

SO... how much to take away from around the valves... anyone?

Google Singh Grooves and you will know why I REALLY want to do this.

I had never heard of the Singh grooves, but I looked into it when a serious hotrod magazine mentioned it like I should know what it was.

When you have EGTs down by 500 degrees, and 20%+ lower fuel consumption, a little more low-end torque, and your race engine can idle at 500RPM, well,

that there's something good.

http://members.cox.net/dnjunk/pent%20roof%20.jpg

Soooo... does anyone know how thick the head is at the quench pads?

oh? hmmm definately some good reading and possible project for my spare head!

Update: pulled the vales. Exhaust valves are nasty and sooty, but look straight. 1/2 the intake valves are obviously, but not dramatically, bent. The intake runners are pretty clean except on the bottom, near the inlet, and one spot by the seat cup, where its REALLY rough. The exhaust ports are nasty, covered in soot. Red lines are about where the Singh grooves will be (straight in; the angles are due to the mouse I use, which my grubby-fingered kids also use)

https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...ghProposal.jpg

The pockets where the seats are installed, all have sharp edges around them. Where the machining stops for the seat in the intake runner is very rough (can't tell in the exhaust till it's cleaned of all the soot).

https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...keBowlMach.jpg
https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...BowlRidges.jpg
https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/.../BowlRidge.jpg

There is some minor casting flash in the runners, intake and exhaust. The tops of all the runners on the intake side are clean. The bottoms, especially right by the inlet, have some obvious fuel/air dropout going on, and I'm sure the PVC oils are part of this mess too. I'll have to compare with the intake manifold to see what's going on here. Maybe smash some play-doh in between the two to see how they relate.

https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...ntakeFlash.jpg
https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...akedropout.jpg

The exhaust side runners are surprisingly small, so that it squeezes my finger just to reach through there. Also, there is a 90 degree turn that could probably stand a little radiusing. Key to doing that is knowing how thick this part of the casting is. If I can't find that out, I'll just clean up the flash.

As far as the coolant channels, I think it was the shadows throwing you off... it's fresh & clean in there by the thermostat (didn't look close at the block yet). The oiled parts including the passages are orange, just like all the other Betas I've seen with their tops off...

https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...oolanthole.jpg

The plan right now is to smooth out the ridges in the intake runners, knock the edges off around the seats, do the Singh grooves and maybe see what's up with the exhaust bend and intake dropout sections. I'm not too keen on gasket matching, not being convinced of the value of it. It looks like the bowls and chamber are where it's at.

Does anyone still have the photos Random posted of the cut-away runners when he cut a head in half?

Forgot to add:

to pull the valves, you need a large socket with an extension, and a hammer. Put the socket on the retainer and whack it. The exhaust valves will hit your bench, stop, and let the keepers go flying out. The intake valves have 1/2" or so to travel which would take a harder blow than I wanted to strike with the mallet... I folded up some cardboard and set it under each intake valve as I removed it, to give the valve something to stop against. Easy.

nice update ! how many miles were/are on the motor. my baby is running a little rough latley. looks like a timing belt change and possible after seeing all this, a new head PnP. I have about 110k miles.

The donor has an ultra-low 165,000 miles. They had JUST put on a fresh set of Goodyears, plus new Gates hoses for the new all-metal radiator. Fresh parts for ME! Not to mention the 0-miles timing belt and tensioner... wink1.gif

Nice to see someone else gettin in the nitty gritty of that restriction we call a head.

I can't say that I like how you remove your valves, but thats comming from me who has a pneumatic spring compressor. Plus they're all ready bent anyway so I suppose it doesn't really matter.

Your getting in pretty deep, all I did was gasket match my intake, took out that 90 in the exhuast, 3 angle VJ, and ringed my intake valves. Cams and duel valve springs to top it off.

Good luck with everything

not so deep... 1/16"!

How much thickness did you take out of the elbow in the exhaust side?

P.S. I just spent 6 hours changing a timing belt, water pump, and drive belts and I'm about car'd out for at least a week or 2 so this is going to be a while lmao.gif

So how are you going to get the valves back in then?

That may work when taking them out but keep in mind it can damage the valves. Even with cardboard underneath. I paid about 50 bucks for my valve spring compressor and its a lot more worth it than bending/breaking valves or fighting them back in.

The exhaust valves popped right out with a gentle whack from the mallet. The intakes are 1/2 obviously bent and 1/2 possibly bent so they're likely to be replaced across the board; no worries about reusing them. The reinstallation is going to be less simple, obviously, but a brother at my church is a professional mechanic and I think he said I could borrow his spring compressor, or else my dad'll have one, or I'll just be forced to buy another tool! fing02.gif

America: where (car) problems are really opportunities (to buy new tools) in disguise!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ericy321 @ Aug 9 2008, 06:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I paid about 50 bucks for my valve spring compressor and its a lot more worth it than bending/breaking valves or fighting them back in.</div>


What brand and where did you get yours?

OTC off ebay. Works perfect for our head.

I spent an hour last night hand-cleaning the head so I don't need gloves to pick the filthy old thing up. I also took some soft stainless tweezers to the carbon residue to knock it out of the small nooks and crannies. I was happily surprised that most of the dropout in the intake runners wiped right out. It seems to me that the intake runner entrances will all need minor widening to make them a hair larger than the intake manifold ports to prevent reversion... I'll have to do direct measurements on that to be sure. When it comes to the combustion chamber, well...

It's much, much worse than I thought. The carbon fouling was hiding the badness of the stock Beta head. I'm talking 1/16"+ thickness of solid carbon buildup. In the valve shrouding. There is an overhang on the intake valves, and the exhaust ports are a solid coating of junk from the incomplete combustion. I'm seriously considering putting the high compression pistons in at the same time this head goes on, because I'm going to lose a 1/2 point of compression just from deshrouding the valves. Plus, with the better combustion space it'll be more resistant to detonation. We'll have to see what the chamber volume ends up measuring. It's approximately 0.1:1 compression ratio loss per cc of volume removed and I can see removing 5cc just opening up the valve surrounds out closer to the cylinder walls.

The intake ports look pretty good, maybe a little reshaping - but not much - will be required. Maybe a little widening of the floor for more area on the short side radius. There is a very small amount of core shift and it's consistent across the length of the head, so cleaning that up won't be too much of a problem. The machining for the valve seats is just horrible. I'm waiting on either Random or VISIONZ to get me the cutaway photos, so I can see just what I'm dealing with on the exhaust side... it's hard to see in the dark around a right angle. Doh.

Post those pictures up here if you would.

I would! I will! I didn't! (take any last night)

It's not so clean for taking more usefuil pictures yet, just it's clean enough to comment on. Standby. Anybody have a hot tank I can use real quick?

i mean the cutaway pictures in particular. smile.gif i've got a half P&P'ed head in the garage that will eventually pair with the gasket matched IM in my car.

Absolutely take your time with this one. I wanted my car back on the road fast, since driving that Rx7 isn't the most practical thing to do laugh.gif I recently got 21 mpg on the highway!!! In town it's around 17, which is a bit costly when gas was 3.90/gal for regular. That's why I hurried up and finished my port/polish and pistons without taking any pics for a DIY. That and the transmission was on its last leg... again. Over revving the rotary won't hurt it, but it's weakling transmission will suffer.

One solution for your valve springs is to make your own compressor. I had some 3/8"rod, pipe, and metal conduit laying around, so I broke out the drill and plumber's torch to make one really quick. Here's something to get you started if you want.

After porting the head, I washed mine with simple green and a garden hose. You may want to find something a little better than that to clean the metal shavings out, but it works.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ericy321 @ Aug 9 2008, 10:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>OTC off ebay. Works perfect for our head.</div>


something like this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VaLvE-Sprin...emZ120291281887

Thats the one. Works awesome

I just laid hands on a 1/16" ball milling tip, I'll try making Singh grooves with it first.

Here is the setup I used to cut the Singh grooves on the intake side quench pad. I marked the cylinder wall and the groove location, then used vinyl tape and covered what I didn't want to cut. Then I hit it with a 0.080" aluminum cutting ball. Feather the end into the chamber, smooth over the edges. This was an hour's work, taking it slow.

https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...ghGrooves1.jpg

My little friends. Don't forget the cooling/cutting oil!

https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...ttingtools.jpg

Here are before/after (adjacent cylinders, actually) shots of my head after spending 2 hours working on the intake side of one chamber. The valves are heavily shrouded, with an actual overhang by the cylinder wall. Also, when they cast the head, they didn't cast the pocket for the hardened seat insert the same dimension, so not only is it shrouded, there's a frikken right angle STEP right at the outlet of the intake valve. I used a 1/8" round cutter for this work, and took it slow. Use your finger to tell you when the geometry needs to change. Pretend to be a whiff of air, and see what would be an impediment to your flowing into the chamber. Feel what would trip you up. Then remove it.

https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...ocketwork1.jpg

https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...ocketwork2.jpg

Man, no wonder it costs $$$$ to have a good-name engine shop work over a cylinder head. It's a hobby all to itself, for every head you do! Working straight through, it's a solid 3-day job. Working after the kids go to sleep... we'll see how long it takes. I didn't stop on these because I was done, by the way, I stopped because it was 00:40hrs and time to go to bed. There is a very small amount of work that I could still do, but I think this would be a good stopping point for these 2 valve pockets if you feel like leaving it. I may leave it, we'll see.

Dang I'm slow. I blame my family.

Singh grooves all the way across on the exhaust side, done.

Rough-out work on 2.5 more chambers on the intake side, done. Knocked down the edges on the funky flat depression next to the spark plug. That's 3 more hours' work.

I was using a new bit. Much. Much. Much. Faster. But it's a smaller diameter so I have more contouring to do than with the duller, larger bit. I'm really hoping the 1.8L pistons clean up alright, because there is a LOT of material coming out of the chambers. It's those pistons, or some big-time decking for compression.

postpics.gif

Okay, so you want a peek?

https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...lCylinders.jpg

https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...sBothSides.jpg

^ dont take this the wrong way... great work. but

why are you doing this. i have done alot of work on beta's i have never seen this done to them..

here is what i did to mine..


https://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y1...n/DSC00009.jpg
https://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y1...DSC8800010.jpg
https://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y1...DSC00006-1.jpg
https://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y1...n/DSC00008.jpg
https://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y1...n/DSC00006.jpg
those valves are stock. and yes i hand sanded them with a drill press and reshaped them with sandpaper..

girt goes as follows 50 80 400 600 800 1000 1200 1500 and 3M fininess it.. compond.glaze and fininess it and some eagle one metal poslish

this should give you some fresh ideals

It might, if my idea(l)s weren't well thought out beforehand. I read a lot of words written by a lot of people who do heads for a living before deciding what and what not to do. I like what you did with the text on the valves (removed it). Did you CC those chambers to see how much aluminum was removed? I'm curious to know just how much is coming out, because it looks like a lot.

If you've never seen the Singh grooves, that's no surprise. It seems like small groups of people swear by it and everybody else has never heard of it. One member @ EXD put the grooves on the intake side and installed his head already. Smoother running and more power at low-RPM operation were reported, which I expected.

Another couple of hours have gone into the combustion chambers. Roughed in the last chamber's intake side and 3 of the chambers' exhaust sides.

The exhaust side has a frikken WALL right next to 1/3 of the valve. I've opened up the area just after the valve seat and increased the radius of the turn that gasses have to take to get out, but I'm wondering if I shouldn't open that part of the chamber all the way out to the bottom of the head.

I'm also thinking of shaving 1mm off the bottom to get the chambers back down in volume.

How much clearance is there, stock, to the pistons from the fully-open valves? That's probably going to be a deciding factor in how far I can deck the head. If *somebody* with the cut-up cylinder head photos could get them to me, I would have a better idea how much I could do in there...

The combustion chambers are roughed-in. I left the wall next to the exhaust valves for now. I want to measure the volume of the chamber as it sits, and see if I want to remove more material, or leave it and have the higher compression w/ slightly worse flow. I'm not sure how much I want to take out around the spark plug hole, but it's probably not going to look like that when I'm done. Yes, it will all get hit with some sandpaper when I get the shape finalized. Yes there are a few scuffs on the deck; those will be gone when 1/2 to 1mm gets shaved off the head. That's going to require recutting the Singh grooves a little, but oh well.

https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/.../roughedin.jpg

I've started in on the intake runners, cleaning up casting flash and core shift. It's not that bad, really. Here's the worst one:
https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...runnershft.jpg
https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...unnerflash.jpg

I've also started on it from the chamber side. I need to get a collet so I can use an extension for my grinder, because this is as far as I can reach with my current tooling.
https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...cs/throat1.jpg

Hopefully we all know that the short-side radius on the intake port, where it bends to go into the chamber, is one of the MOST important places to have a smooth transition for good flow numbers. In light of that, have a look at this:
https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...owthatsbad.jpg

That thing labelled Flash? Yeah, that's 1/16-1/8" of casting flash jutting out into the SSR transition to the valve seat. Nice eh?

IF VISIONZ WOULD GET ME THE CUTAWAY PHOTOS (hint hint, I know, I'm subtle) I would know how far I will be able to push out the sides of the runner floor to increase the width of the short-side radius on the intake runner (labeled Radius). I would also be more comfortable with the thickness of the quench pads for cutting the Singh grooves after the head is machined. I'm pretty sure the pads will be plenty thick, though, seeing MadJohn removed his exhaust-side pads entirely! fing02.gif

That's all for now kids! More photos when I get more work done.

Cleaning the exhaust manifolds of all the burnt-on oil and carbon fouling is like a porting job all by itself. There has got to be an easier way, without getting the whole head hot-tanked. So how do you get this stuff off, besides with a pick (the hard way, like I did one set of ports last night)? The runners, bowls, EVERYTHING, was coated up to 1/8" thick.

PICS!

The runners
https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...ersfouling.jpg

The bowls. Yes it is very lumpy in there, and no, it doesn't all have to be made smooth. You want to be careful on the top of the runner, to try and avoid making a reversion in the flow. There's a slight overhang there, and it's got to be left as shallow as possible (don't grind it all pretty). The short-side radius can definitely stand to be opened up a little wider. The valve guide is literally completely covered with nastiness that's hard as cement (not concrete, but at least cement). Very little is to be gained by reshaping that area, also, to the point of not being worth too much time.
https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...lsfouling1.jpg

The throats. Build-up, even here!
https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...atsfouling.jpg

There will probably not be many pictures of the turn in the port, because you can't see it. It's a right-angle. And narrow. Looking from either end, you can't see around the bend. I'm going to have to think about just what to do here.
<u>
IF VISIONZ WOULD GET ME THE CUTAWAY PHOTOS</u> I would know how far I could widen the floor of the exhaust runners hint hint

Wow, that fouling is WAAAAY worse then my spare head. I had some crud to clean off, but none of it needed more then a good scrubbing with the rotary tool.

Yeah. I'm thinking it's time for some new valve stem seals @ 165,000 miles! I'm not so sure the exhaust valves were sealing very well either.

I decided it sucked too bad to use a pick to remove the fouling. I grabbed my biggest, dullest ball milling tip and took out chunks at a time, enough to let me see what the metal looks like underneath. There is some sanding to be done yet wink1.gif but at least I was able to get an idea what's happening. I went as far as my current setup will let me reach into the exhaust runners, removing flash and evening out the core shift. Looks MUCH better now eh.

https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...inexhport1.jpg
https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...inexhport0.jpg

BTW MJ your images are gone (boo! )

Im Not sure if this pic I found will help you any but i figured it would be better than nothing. Its of a cut beta head showing the exhaust and intake ports. Its Going to be the second pic down.
Head Pic

That's actually pretty helpful, thanks!

forever and a day ago, Random chopped up a cylinder head and took pictures. His photobucket is all wedding stuff these days and nobody wants to go dig out the photos. Like the pothead said:

"It'd be a lot cooler if you did!"

https://i349.photobucket.com/albums/...cs/cutaway.jpg

Looks like the limitation on the Singh grooves is ... nonexistant. Don't cut so deep you end up in China, when you are cutting Singh grooves in a Beta head. That also explains how the Koreans can delete the exhaust side quench pad... it's solid all the way out past the edge of the chamber. Good, now I can feel much more comfortable, deshrouding the exhaust valves all the way out to the deck!

And if the thickness is the same (looks like 1/4") all the way around the port, that means a good 1/8" can come out of the sides & floor of the SSR on both intake and exhaust, if need be.

Image from www.performancecoupe.co.uk, where you can get headers for only $800 or so. Wow. Do they come with a singing monkey or something?

Im glad that picture helped ya i ran acrossed it because of the motoria intake manifold thread and remembered that you were looking for a cut pic. Anyway good luck with this whole project, Im following your progress closely.

I just re-read this whole thread and realized a few things need clarification:

*The Singh grooves will need re-cut, after the head is decked for compression. I'd like to have compression as high as I can, since the grooves will keep detonation away. I will have to do something clever with the timing between measuring valve/piston clearances and getting the work done, to be able to get the job done in a single weekend & drive it to work monday.
*I intend to install the pistons from that donor engine, assuming they will clean up. That, plus a thinner 2002 elantra head gasket would normally net a 1 point static compression ratio increase. It may get me back to stock or just slightly higher
*The exhaust runner outlet divider needs to be thinned out a little, maybe to a dull edge.
*I'll have to see what my manifolds look like, before I can decide how much to remove to do a port match/blend on the intake AND exhaust runners. (I think this will have me down for more than a weekend, shh, don't tell the wife)
*The underhangs on the intake/exhaust bowls need to be left mostly alone, aside from removing the sharp transitions between the casting & machining
*The shape and volume of the runners is going to stay pretty much the same, aside from easing the short-side radii, especially on the exhaust side, and widening the SSRs a little bit as well. The casting flash & shift cleanup should help alot, especially at the bowl/chamber transitions.
*Minor smoothing/reshaping of the spark plug hole needs to be done, still.
*The only other big operation in the chamber will be to pull the deshrouding out to about 1/2" from the exhaust seat, and then maybe make a large-radius roundover to the quench pad

Unless anybody else has some hands-on flowbench time to tell me different, that's about it. Just another full day with the grinder...

If anybody has a spare beta head and a big bandsaw, I'd sure like photos of one that's been chopped up a bunch of different ways (coughVISIONZcoughcough)

UPDATE!!!

^ +1

lot of good ideas in here! very detailed. We want MORE!!!