Another One Bites The Dust!
05-13-2005, 01:57 AM
#1
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Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but we have yet ANOTHER engine failure.
Engine was clatering very loudly. HLA's first suspected, so they were swapped out.
Same clatter.
Injectors suspect. Sent to RC Engineering. Cleaned and equalized and sent back. Same problem.
New plugs. Same problem. Cursory examination, plugs looked okay, but a bit carbon-y
Ran compression check on motor. 8.5:1 Wiseco forged pistons
Cylinder #4 182psi
Cylinder #3 190psi
Cylinder #2 54psi (1st attempt)
Cylinder #2 59psi (2nd attempt)
Cylinder #1 180psi
It sound appeared to come from intake valve area around #2 or #3 cylinders in head. Since #2 cylinder is down on compression, it must have bad valves.
Pull intake cam again, and pull HLA's for Cylinder #2 again. Valve train appears to all be in order. Valves decend/retract properly.
Okay...time to pull the head.
Head is removed...and what we find makes NO SENSE...
Cylinder walls #1. visually "good"
Piston top #1: visually "good" with minor carbon deposits
Combuston chamber #1. Visually "good" with minor carbon deposits
Exhaust port #1. Visually "normal" Carbon coated but with little white flecks ON TOP of carbon???
Cylinder walls #2. visually "Marginal" minor vertical scoring on cylinder walls, but still smooth to touch. Would be a problem before 50,000 miles, but not enough to only give 59psi on compression test.
Piston top #2 Visually "Very Good" Piston top was unusally clean. Like cylinder had been "dead" for quite a while and injectors had been "washing" it clean.
Combuston chamber #2 Visually "Very Good" Fairly clean (see above)
Exhaust port #2. Visually "normal" Carbon coated (somewhat less than normal) but with little white flecks ON TOP of carbon???
Cylinder walls #3. visually "Poor/Marginal" minor vertical scoring on cylinder walls, but still smooth to touch. Not as bad as Cylinder #2. Would be a problem before 80,000 miles, but cylinder had highest compression rating at 190psi on compression test.
Piston top #3 Visually "poor/marginal" Carbon deposits and "dents" in piston top. Appears some kind of debris was injested by cylinder and knocked between piston and combustion chamber.
Combuston chamber #3 Visually "Poor/marginal" It appears cylinder "injested" something metalic. Damage also in quench areas above intake and exhaust valves. Damage to valve corners, quench areas and main combustion area.
Exhaust port #3. Visually "normal" Carbon coated but with little white flecks ON TOP of carbon???
Cylinder walls #4. visually "Good/normal" VERY minor vertical scoring on cylinder walls, but still smooth to touch. Not as bad as Cylinder #3. Would be a problem before 150,000 miles, but cylinder had decent compression rating at 180psi on compression test.
Piston top #4 Visually "damage/toastl" Carbon deposits and "dents" in piston top. Appears some kind of debris was injested by cylinder and knocked between piston and combustion chamber. Piston top looks like it was poked with an ice pick.
Combuston chamber #4 Visually "Damage/toast" It appears cylinder "injested" something metalic. Damage also in quench areas above intake and exhaust valves. Damage to valve corners, quench areas and main combustion area.
Exhaust port #4. Visually "WTF???" Carbon coated in "sheets". Sheet's of carbon flaking off in large sections. Sheets are also "curled" and "deformed" almost looking like "dead" flower petals.
Okay...now. You get the photos.
http://photos.random00.com/thumbnails.php?album=65
If anyone has any clue's as to the white flecks on top of the carbon buildup... feel free to post them up. I've got my theories, but I'm going to hold off on them until every has had a chance to put in their $0.02.
Engine was clatering very loudly. HLA's first suspected, so they were swapped out.
Same clatter.
Injectors suspect. Sent to RC Engineering. Cleaned and equalized and sent back. Same problem.
New plugs. Same problem. Cursory examination, plugs looked okay, but a bit carbon-y
Ran compression check on motor. 8.5:1 Wiseco forged pistons
Cylinder #4 182psi
Cylinder #3 190psi
Cylinder #2 54psi (1st attempt)
Cylinder #2 59psi (2nd attempt)
Cylinder #1 180psi
It sound appeared to come from intake valve area around #2 or #3 cylinders in head. Since #2 cylinder is down on compression, it must have bad valves.
Pull intake cam again, and pull HLA's for Cylinder #2 again. Valve train appears to all be in order. Valves decend/retract properly.
Okay...time to pull the head.
Head is removed...and what we find makes NO SENSE...
Cylinder walls #1. visually "good"
Piston top #1: visually "good" with minor carbon deposits
Combuston chamber #1. Visually "good" with minor carbon deposits
Exhaust port #1. Visually "normal" Carbon coated but with little white flecks ON TOP of carbon???
Cylinder walls #2. visually "Marginal" minor vertical scoring on cylinder walls, but still smooth to touch. Would be a problem before 50,000 miles, but not enough to only give 59psi on compression test.
Piston top #2 Visually "Very Good" Piston top was unusally clean. Like cylinder had been "dead" for quite a while and injectors had been "washing" it clean.
Combuston chamber #2 Visually "Very Good" Fairly clean (see above)
Exhaust port #2. Visually "normal" Carbon coated (somewhat less than normal) but with little white flecks ON TOP of carbon???
Cylinder walls #3. visually "Poor/Marginal" minor vertical scoring on cylinder walls, but still smooth to touch. Not as bad as Cylinder #2. Would be a problem before 80,000 miles, but cylinder had highest compression rating at 190psi on compression test.
Piston top #3 Visually "poor/marginal" Carbon deposits and "dents" in piston top. Appears some kind of debris was injested by cylinder and knocked between piston and combustion chamber.
Combuston chamber #3 Visually "Poor/marginal" It appears cylinder "injested" something metalic. Damage also in quench areas above intake and exhaust valves. Damage to valve corners, quench areas and main combustion area.
Exhaust port #3. Visually "normal" Carbon coated but with little white flecks ON TOP of carbon???
Cylinder walls #4. visually "Good/normal" VERY minor vertical scoring on cylinder walls, but still smooth to touch. Not as bad as Cylinder #3. Would be a problem before 150,000 miles, but cylinder had decent compression rating at 180psi on compression test.
Piston top #4 Visually "damage/toastl" Carbon deposits and "dents" in piston top. Appears some kind of debris was injested by cylinder and knocked between piston and combustion chamber. Piston top looks like it was poked with an ice pick.
Combuston chamber #4 Visually "Damage/toast" It appears cylinder "injested" something metalic. Damage also in quench areas above intake and exhaust valves. Damage to valve corners, quench areas and main combustion area.
Exhaust port #4. Visually "WTF???" Carbon coated in "sheets". Sheet's of carbon flaking off in large sections. Sheets are also "curled" and "deformed" almost looking like "dead" flower petals.
Okay...now. You get the photos.
http://photos.random00.com/thumbnails.php?album=65
If anyone has any clue's as to the white flecks on top of the carbon buildup... feel free to post them up. I've got my theories, but I'm going to hold off on them until every has had a chance to put in their $0.02.
05-13-2005, 06:26 AM
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From the pictures it almost looks as if the pistons are not getting enough oil to lube the rings, those little white spots and pitting could be caused by some small metal debris from the rings and cylinder walls getting into the combustion chamber. How many miles are on this motor, if it's new I would pull the bottom half apart and check for any spun bearings that could be blocking the oil feed to the pistons, whats the oil pressure look like when it was running? looks like not enough oil to lube the cylinders, could be a spun bearing or a bad oil pump.
05-13-2005, 08:32 AM
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Maxxtib-
Damn good theory, I won't discount it. But, let me point something out. If the oiling theory you put forth is true. Why is cylinder #2 down 130 psi of compression compared to the other cylinders, yet visually "fine". Yet Cylinders 3 and 4 which "ate" something (using your theory rings or bits of piston or cylinder wall,bearing,oilpump) have good compression?
Damn good theory, I won't discount it. But, let me point something out. If the oiling theory you put forth is true. Why is cylinder #2 down 130 psi of compression compared to the other cylinders, yet visually "fine". Yet Cylinders 3 and 4 which "ate" something (using your theory rings or bits of piston or cylinder wall,bearing,oilpump) have good compression?
05-13-2005, 09:37 AM
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QUOTE (MaxxTib @ May 13 2005, 05:26 AM)
looks like not enough oil to lube the cylinders, could be a spun bearing or a bad oil pump.
that is what ive been worried about since last night...
05-13-2005, 11:40 AM
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Vehicle: 2001 Hyundai Tiburon
Jaws, how do you manage to break everything you get your hands on? tongue.gif
I would've went with what Maxx said, as thats the logical pick, but it really stumps me.
I would've went with what Maxx said, as thats the logical pick, but it really stumps me.
05-13-2005, 11:53 AM
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i really dont know man.. $hit happens..
its funny too... my car seems to break the weirdest things..
Anyways..
Although i am worried i spun a bearing (just because of luck)... that wouldint explain some of the crap that we saw last night..
its funny too... my car seems to break the weirdest things..
Anyways..
Although i am worried i spun a bearing (just because of luck)... that wouldint explain some of the crap that we saw last night..