300HP QnA
07-22-2001, 04:17 PM
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Vehicle: 2008 Toyota Prius 2006 Suzuki SV650S
There is no such thing as cheap and reliable.
Getting 300 HP out of a tibby would have to be turbocharged if you are talking cheap.
You would have to replace the stock pistions, and rods, re-work the head, and build yourself a turbo and intercooler setup capable of delivering about 20 to 25 PSI. You would need larger fuel injectors, and a stand alone engine managment setup (Haltec/MoTec).
You would be looking at at LEAST $5000, more likely closer to $7500 and possible as much as $10,000 if you wanted daily driver reliabilty.
The McIntyre Methanol injected turbo MIGHT be capable of doing 300 HP for less money, but you will still have problems with the car snapping drive axles at that point. Rafael and Onpol just twisted/snapped an axle with onpol's car, and he was dynoed at 227 HP to the wheels. At this point in time, there are no drive axle replacements for the tiburon....so that is another hidden expense/worry.
Look into Red's setup on his Mad Boost motor. His target was 300 or 350 if I remember right.
Getting 300 HP out of a tibby would have to be turbocharged if you are talking cheap.
You would have to replace the stock pistions, and rods, re-work the head, and build yourself a turbo and intercooler setup capable of delivering about 20 to 25 PSI. You would need larger fuel injectors, and a stand alone engine managment setup (Haltec/MoTec).
You would be looking at at LEAST $5000, more likely closer to $7500 and possible as much as $10,000 if you wanted daily driver reliabilty.
The McIntyre Methanol injected turbo MIGHT be capable of doing 300 HP for less money, but you will still have problems with the car snapping drive axles at that point. Rafael and Onpol just twisted/snapped an axle with onpol's car, and he was dynoed at 227 HP to the wheels. At this point in time, there are no drive axle replacements for the tiburon....so that is another hidden expense/worry.
Look into Red's setup on his Mad Boost motor. His target was 300 or 350 if I remember right.
07-23-2001, 03:15 AM
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Damn...i forgot about axle stress. So much for my cheaper 250whp ideas. It *might* be cheaper to get a Mitsu front end in the long run. Maybe my friend can machine some chromoly axles rolleyes.gif tongue.gif
Random, does Onpol have a LSD on his Tib? Would that help in that situation?
[ July 23, 2001: Message edited by: skilspeed ]
Random, does Onpol have a LSD on his Tib? Would that help in that situation?
[ July 23, 2001: Message edited by: skilspeed ]
07-23-2001, 03:23 AM
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He does have a Phantom Grip. It is similar to a LSD, but not a TRUE LSD.
In regards to axle stress, an LSD would hurt. The Phantom Grip caused Both axles to spin at the same rate, which allowed both front tires to hookup. If one tire was allowed to spin....it might not have happened. Granted...this is not exactly the ticket to low ET's.
In regards to axle stress, an LSD would hurt. The Phantom Grip caused Both axles to spin at the same rate, which allowed both front tires to hookup. If one tire was allowed to spin....it might not have happened. Granted...this is not exactly the ticket to low ET's.
07-23-2001, 03:57 AM
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Random is entirely correct, in that "reliable" and "streetable" will never be cheap if you're talking about serious horsepower.
The motor will need to be fully reworked from the ground up. Cooling measures should also be considered, not only for water but also oil and air charge; transmission cooling is also a very good idea if you plan to run a true LSD such as a Quaiffe or Kaaz unit.
Things to consider:
We have information that the pressure plate on these cars are known to self destruct when approaching 300lbs of torque. If the car is dragraced regularly, expect this part to break.
There is also Onpol's problem of a broken axle; it seems that he has also shelled one of the pinion gears in the stock differential, so yet another expense to consider.
Furthermore, there is a very real need to have a fully standalone engine management system installed for both driveability and horsepower. "Bandaid" fixes will work only to a certain extent, but the car will perform better all around if a Motec or Haltech system is used.
Also, a high-output four banger doesn't have a long life span anyway. Expect to rebuild the motor almost every 50k miles (or less), especially if you're wanting 300+HP out of it. Even if it never breaks, the simple fact that you're loading it 3x more than stock specs were intended for means you'll be rebuilding it sooner.
I'm aiming for a similar goal, and here's what I'm doing / spending.
Spare 1998 2.0L shortblock: $150
I got an insane hookup on this, I don't know where you can find a shortblock anywhere else for less than $500. It's nice to have a "spare" motor to start with, this way you can take your time and get it right. Once all the parts finally arrive (ugh) it should likely still take me a full week to assemble it all.
Block Preparation: $275
This is the standard going rate at the machine shop. They will be blueprinting the block, and boring it out 0.020" over stock. They will also be milling the deck height slightly for the correct clearance between the piston crowns and cylinder head quench surfaces. After all the grinding and milling, the block will be acid dipped to remove any crap in the cooling or oil veins, and the cylinder bores will be honed to the appropriate specification for my piston rings.
Crank turned 0.010", balanced: $150
That's the standard going rate at the local machine shop. "Turning" the crank means shaving down the journals by a slight amount (approximately ten thousandths of an inch in my case) so the clearance between the crank journal and the bearings is exactly what you want. The clearances on my main and rod bearings will be 0.0016" (yes, 16 ten-thousandths of an inch)
The balance job is there to eliminate as much vibration as possible; the balance is done with the crank, flywheel, and crank pully. You would also include pistons and rods in the balance job if you're using stock components (why you would so such a thing, I have no idea) My aftermarket pieces are fully balanced as-is, so they need not be in here.
Crower Forged Billet Rods: $675
If you're going to aim for crazy horsepower, do it right the first time or you'll regret it later when something breaks. I'd rather spend the moolah than have my car bend a rod while I'm hauling ass down the track at full bore.
Forged steel pistons: $600
I'm giving you the estimated street price of a set of JE's, along with rings. I will not be using JE equipment, I'm having another company develop pistons specifically for my needs. These pistons will be available to the general public when finished, but there is no set date when they will be available yet. The finished price on these specialty parts should also be around the $450 mark.
Cylinder head reworked: $800
This is a rough estimate, and entirely depends on who's doing the work and how fluent they are with the head. At the very least, the exhaust ports need to be reshaped and the intake ports opened up slightly and roughened. It is also a very good idea to have the combustion chamber "smoothed" to remove all the sharp edges and casting errors. The company that's building my pistons is also reworking my cylinder head, the projected cost is around $1300 for the finished part.
Fuel System Hardware: $500
If you want power, you need fuel. This price includes a new high flow fuel pump and four new injectors from RC Engineering. This is just the hardware, you'll need some form of electronic management so your car doesn't choke and die at idle with 2x the stock amount of fuel.
Turbo "kit": $2000-4500
This varies widely, and completely depends on what you want to accomplish and how much work you want to do yourself. The $2000 assumes you're using a refurbed turbo (nothing wrong with that), have a manifold built specifically for you, pick up a cheap intercooler off EBAY or The Parts Trader, and do all the plumbing yourself. The $4500 is likely what it would cost for a similar setup to be fabricated by a shop.
Electronics and Tuning equipment: $600-3000
At the low end of the spectrum, you could get an S-AFC and S-ITC setup which could "bandaid" your stock ECU into dealing with the upgrades. In this case, you'd have a very hard time hitting 300WHP simply because you can only get so far with such fixes. At the high end, you have a Motec unit with all the gizmos and gadgets, and it's likely your car would hit 300WHP with a lot less effort. In the middle you have a Haltech device, which is almost as good as any Motec system, but is a bit less expensive.
Supporting Equipment: $1000-2000
This is the "catch all" category, and includes a full exhaust setup, a new clutch, solid motor mounts and transmission mounts, as well as a few suspension upgrades to keep the power on the concrete. This doesn't include the LSD option, or having a company rebuild your axles out of something tougher.
I'm doing all of the above, and a few more, and expect to pay around $4500-$5500 when it's all finished. I'm also doing a significant amount of the work myself, so the costs are much lower since I'm not paying for someone else's labor.
There's a crapload more where that came from such as options for break-in, gasoline (octane) requirements, special care and maintenance needed in such a motor, and the whole gammut of tuning that needs to happen when the motor is ready to be raced.
Hope that helped,
-Red-
The motor will need to be fully reworked from the ground up. Cooling measures should also be considered, not only for water but also oil and air charge; transmission cooling is also a very good idea if you plan to run a true LSD such as a Quaiffe or Kaaz unit.
Things to consider:
We have information that the pressure plate on these cars are known to self destruct when approaching 300lbs of torque. If the car is dragraced regularly, expect this part to break.
There is also Onpol's problem of a broken axle; it seems that he has also shelled one of the pinion gears in the stock differential, so yet another expense to consider.
Furthermore, there is a very real need to have a fully standalone engine management system installed for both driveability and horsepower. "Bandaid" fixes will work only to a certain extent, but the car will perform better all around if a Motec or Haltech system is used.
Also, a high-output four banger doesn't have a long life span anyway. Expect to rebuild the motor almost every 50k miles (or less), especially if you're wanting 300+HP out of it. Even if it never breaks, the simple fact that you're loading it 3x more than stock specs were intended for means you'll be rebuilding it sooner.
I'm aiming for a similar goal, and here's what I'm doing / spending.
Spare 1998 2.0L shortblock: $150
I got an insane hookup on this, I don't know where you can find a shortblock anywhere else for less than $500. It's nice to have a "spare" motor to start with, this way you can take your time and get it right. Once all the parts finally arrive (ugh) it should likely still take me a full week to assemble it all.
Block Preparation: $275
This is the standard going rate at the machine shop. They will be blueprinting the block, and boring it out 0.020" over stock. They will also be milling the deck height slightly for the correct clearance between the piston crowns and cylinder head quench surfaces. After all the grinding and milling, the block will be acid dipped to remove any crap in the cooling or oil veins, and the cylinder bores will be honed to the appropriate specification for my piston rings.
Crank turned 0.010", balanced: $150
That's the standard going rate at the local machine shop. "Turning" the crank means shaving down the journals by a slight amount (approximately ten thousandths of an inch in my case) so the clearance between the crank journal and the bearings is exactly what you want. The clearances on my main and rod bearings will be 0.0016" (yes, 16 ten-thousandths of an inch)
The balance job is there to eliminate as much vibration as possible; the balance is done with the crank, flywheel, and crank pully. You would also include pistons and rods in the balance job if you're using stock components (why you would so such a thing, I have no idea) My aftermarket pieces are fully balanced as-is, so they need not be in here.
Crower Forged Billet Rods: $675
If you're going to aim for crazy horsepower, do it right the first time or you'll regret it later when something breaks. I'd rather spend the moolah than have my car bend a rod while I'm hauling ass down the track at full bore.
Forged steel pistons: $600
I'm giving you the estimated street price of a set of JE's, along with rings. I will not be using JE equipment, I'm having another company develop pistons specifically for my needs. These pistons will be available to the general public when finished, but there is no set date when they will be available yet. The finished price on these specialty parts should also be around the $450 mark.
Cylinder head reworked: $800
This is a rough estimate, and entirely depends on who's doing the work and how fluent they are with the head. At the very least, the exhaust ports need to be reshaped and the intake ports opened up slightly and roughened. It is also a very good idea to have the combustion chamber "smoothed" to remove all the sharp edges and casting errors. The company that's building my pistons is also reworking my cylinder head, the projected cost is around $1300 for the finished part.
Fuel System Hardware: $500
If you want power, you need fuel. This price includes a new high flow fuel pump and four new injectors from RC Engineering. This is just the hardware, you'll need some form of electronic management so your car doesn't choke and die at idle with 2x the stock amount of fuel.
Turbo "kit": $2000-4500
This varies widely, and completely depends on what you want to accomplish and how much work you want to do yourself. The $2000 assumes you're using a refurbed turbo (nothing wrong with that), have a manifold built specifically for you, pick up a cheap intercooler off EBAY or The Parts Trader, and do all the plumbing yourself. The $4500 is likely what it would cost for a similar setup to be fabricated by a shop.
Electronics and Tuning equipment: $600-3000
At the low end of the spectrum, you could get an S-AFC and S-ITC setup which could "bandaid" your stock ECU into dealing with the upgrades. In this case, you'd have a very hard time hitting 300WHP simply because you can only get so far with such fixes. At the high end, you have a Motec unit with all the gizmos and gadgets, and it's likely your car would hit 300WHP with a lot less effort. In the middle you have a Haltech device, which is almost as good as any Motec system, but is a bit less expensive.
Supporting Equipment: $1000-2000
This is the "catch all" category, and includes a full exhaust setup, a new clutch, solid motor mounts and transmission mounts, as well as a few suspension upgrades to keep the power on the concrete. This doesn't include the LSD option, or having a company rebuild your axles out of something tougher.
I'm doing all of the above, and a few more, and expect to pay around $4500-$5500 when it's all finished. I'm also doing a significant amount of the work myself, so the costs are much lower since I'm not paying for someone else's labor.
There's a crapload more where that came from such as options for break-in, gasoline (octane) requirements, special care and maintenance needed in such a motor, and the whole gammut of tuning that needs to happen when the motor is ready to be raced.
Hope that helped,
-Red-
oops, did I say that?
Fiance.