<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JonGTR @ Sep 8 2005, 09:36 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Just get a PRS standalone so you can do everything needed. The PRS4 is $675 shipped, and the PRS2 which is all you need would cost quite a bit less.
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Most people here wouldn't have the time and/or competence (no offense) needed to install a standalone. If you factor in the cost of installation and initial tuning, you can easily step into the $1500+ range.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (01importshark @ Sep 8 2005, 10:36 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>I am using the emanage so if i was to get these and get the revlimiter raised only, how much would that be, or how hard would it be? that would be all i need. how neccessary would it be to raise the limiter? would you just not experience the full potential of the cams without the raised limiter?
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Raising the limiter would be a MUST. Denis has a set of agressive cams (the ones Key Motorsports used to sell, if anybody remembers) and you really have to shift gears high in the rpm to get all the power these cams offer. Of course, he has an ECU with the rev-limiter removed wink1.gif

As far as price goes for the rev-limiter, well, it's basically the same job for me. Once my "image" is done, it's the same amount of work to change change the rev-limiter or to completely remap the fuel and injection maps.

I'd say $180 + shipping, just to be fair.

/Edit: I forgot; on Denis car, the car would die and/or BADLY stumble at idle at the stock idle speed. We had to raise the idle speed a little to get it idling good. I can do that with the stock ECU too wink1.gif

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agarwal @ Sep 8 2005, 12:22 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Most people here wouldn't have the time and/or competence (no offense) needed to install a standalone. If you factor in the cost of installation and initial tuning, you can easily step into the $1500+ range.<div align='right'><{POST_SNAPBACK}></div></div>
That's completely false. Check the standalone threads from recently on the costs and install.

If you're not willing to shell out for a decent computer, then you shouldn't be reading this thread. A piggy back isn't gonna do shit for these cams.
And you'd think that if you are ready to spend $1100 on some good cams, then you are probably already needing a standalone for your drag car. It only makes sense.
These are not for your typical I/E only streetcars.

Oh? I guess Denis' car isn't making close to 190hp N/A then, does it? And with what, a piggyback, and a little help to the stock ECU.

And let's say you're not the only person here who's got a good turbo setup wink1.gif

Now don't get me wrong; a standalone is great, but it's far from being the holy grail of tuning. Personally, on my setup, I like the fact that I'm completely stock off-boost (or mostly stock, if I care to play with the MAF signal), and that I have complete, yes, COMPLETE control while under boost. And that's with, guess, a piggyback.

We certainly doesn't have the same definition of "drag car"; a ~200hp car is no drag car. It's only a car that's funnier to drive, and it's my belief that it's what most people want.

A standalone would obviously work, but based on what I know and what I see around here (I know at least 2 N/A beta with VERY agressive cams; guess how much of 'em are running on a standalone? Right, zero), it perfectly can be done using a piggyback and/or (modified) stock ECU.

Is it better with a piggyback? Probably not. Is it cheaper? Sure is. I don't care what you think it would cost to install/tune a piggyback. I KNOW that around here, if I bring a standalone and a car to my shop and say "install and tune that", I'll get a $1000+ bill.

And let's not forget about a very important fact for some people: the car still has to pass emissions. You can't do that with the PRS (you can with the XMS, but I haven't seen a price for it yet). You have to swap the stock ecu back and blabla; most people doesn't want to have to do that.

^^^ i agree with you 100%..

when i installed my turbo kit and the intake mani, etc. etc. it immediately just idled around 950-1000 rpm. this was of course before what ever sensor/actuator failure im dealing with now...

yah, thats what i love about my piggyback so far, my second set of injectors, ignition maps, air flow adjustment, dont kick in until i hit 0.06 bar.

agarwal, you mentioned messing with your MAF signals, would you happen to know what your grid is set up like matching MAF v to rpm? cuz i think thats why mines idling like shit, or not idling at all.

prob. 10% of the people on here who are boosting or going to boost, are actually thinking of building a DRAG car as opposed to a quick ass street car that they can still drive on daily basis.

its really nice also that i can unplug my piggyback, and plug the stock harness back into ECU for whatever reason, not like im going to go far on stock fuel maps, etc.

so it would be about the same price agarwal to adjust stock maps a bit just to add a LIL more fuel throughout the band to kinda ease into the second rail, also a lil timing adjustment would be nice..


back on topic, which would be the best cam to get for a boosted and daily driven car.. with an extensive turbo setup, that wants to improve performance and sound, but not affect daily drivability that much..

what other reccomendations would be good, but not uber expensive to upgrade at the same time besides adjustable cam gears with the cams. at the time i do cams, i will be port and polishing the head with a 3 or 5-angle valve job, etc.

You still didn't read the PRS posts. Doesn't surprise me. welcome.gif

The SAFC doesn't work. It's a POS and will destroy your car. Don't argue this.

The Emanage costs MORE than the PRS and doesn't do half the functions. We already have a base tune for the PRS and a wiring diagram. Where is it for the Emanage? I have Cartech's tuners here and some other popular ones around that won't touch the SAFC or Emanage because it's a worthless fight. But they'll tune just about any standalone because they are basically universal.
The slight adjustments that you would have to make to the base PRS tune shouldn't cost anyone over $100. It's free if you have a wideband.

As for needing OBD. It's easily fixable just by plugging back in a couple wires ONCE a year for ONE hour. OMG hassle. I explained this in the PRS thread.


Like I said, these cams are for serious tuners that need a standalone anyways. Otherwise, get a port/polish, BBTB, Airam, pistons, etc. There are a hundred OTHER alternatives to these when comparing HP per $.

Who wrote about the SAFC? It is obviously a POS; it's meant to be visually pleasant more than anything else.

I'm using an SMT6. It costs half of the PRS, and it doesn't NEED to have all functions of a standalone, since the stock ECU is still there wink1.gif It has many inputs and outputs, so you can do pretty much what you want with it.

Now... why would you need a base map for a piggyback? That just doesn't make sense. You need a base map for a standalone to get the car near stock again. There's no need to with a piggyback, as the ECU is still there. Hope you get that.

Being a "popular" tuner doesn't say anything about competence. One of the guy in my local hyundai club, DanielG, has a standalone computer for his turbo setup. It's an Autronic. And the tuning sucks, even though he had the tuning done by a reputable shop/tuner.

My car runs a LOT better, and I'm using a piggyback.

That just illustrates that tuning mainly depends on the tuner, not the device. Of course, there ARE things you can't do with a piggyback. But I don't feel there's any with the matter at hand.

Like I said, a standalone is obviously the best way to go in a lot of situations. But I don't consider a "small to medium setup" N/A or even turbo car to be one of them. Cams aren't magical or anything; you doesn't suddently need a standalone to get the power out of them.

The only "problem" with a piggyback with such a setup is the rev-limiter and the idle; but I already said that I could fix that.

What I say is based on personal experience. Not "I heard that..." and "on paper, it's better because blabla...".

I think all the arguements have been made; you obviously will just try again to convince me that a standalone is better, while I say that the choice must be made depending on needs and goals. Let just people decide for themselves. If they can install a standalone, they can do that, right? wink1.gif

Edit: I guess I'm not a "serious" tuner, since I'm using a piggyback lame.gif

You're still talking about the base tune of the standalone. For the 3rd time, we have the file available. So now it just needs a fine tune, just like your piggyback.

SMT + DIS2=$650+
or
Emanage=$600+
Then you want to add your mystical ECU reprograming=$200

So now you're at almost a grand just to run these cams, and you still don't have the capabilities of a standalone.

Instead of nutswinging the SMT or Emanage, why don't you guys explain to me why NOT to get the standalone. Cause I've already done the price and functionality comparisons, and those bandaid fixes don't even come close.


As for this:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>What I say is based on personal experience. Not "I heard that..." and "on paper, it's better because blabla...".</div>
I've installed the SMT, and it sucked just as bad as the SAFC. No one could get the timing issue fixed because of the stock ECU.
I have the SAFC, and it fried the rings from leaning the hell out of the motor. Why? Because of the stock ECU.

Why try to work with the cancer when you can kill it?

Like I said, tuning a device is more dependant on competence than functionality. You didn't have the competence to tune the SMT, so you didn't succeed with it.

Simple.

Another thing... you're talking about tuning an FI setup with a piggyback. The SAFC was NEVER meant to tune an FI setup, and I wouldn't tune an FI setup with the SMT "only" neither; the SMT can control aditionnal injectors and have an input for a MAP, and that's what must be used for an FI setup.

Tuning an FI setup with just the MAF is plain dumb.

You don't need an MSD to control timing with the SMT. You just need an external igniter/inverter, as you would need with an Haltech.

For someone who wants to make 500hp with a turbo setup, I'd say get a standalone. For someone who wants a nice N/A car or mild turbo setup and thinking of buying these cams, I'd say stick with the stock ECU + piggyback. You seem to forget that different persons has different goals and needs.

Why NOT to get a standalone:
- Cost. I don't care if you say it costs 600$. The "standard" (non-GB) price is around $750. Most people here wouldn't install it themselves. Having or not a wiring diagram doesn't matter much; PerfectPower (or Canspeed in Canada) can help a lot with those, they're very helpful. Then you have to get it tuned with a wideband ideally on a dyno. Installation + tuning would be at least another $700. I don't care if you say that it could be cheaper. I could bake my own bread, too, and make my own pastas, but I don't. So the total is around ~$1400. SMT6 + ignition module + modified ECU would be closer to $650. And note that it would be possible to map the stock ECU against the new cams, so if you want to be optimistic (like you are with your cost of the standalone), we could say that it would only cost $200 to get the stock ECU remapped, and that's all.
- Simplicity. More people can install a piggyback versus a complete standalone.
- Reliability. All the things the stock ECU controls would still work perfectly and without issue (gauges, CC, whipers, etc).
- Emissions.
- Logics. There's no "need" for a standalone on 95% of setups on this forum, even with these cams. Poeple want a fun car that's got some power, not an all-drag car. From my point of view, Denis has the most powerful and complete N/A setup around here; he doesn't have a standalone, and his setup works like a charm. Never had ANY problem in 2+ years. That alone should be a good indicator of what's possible.

I won't discuss the standalone versus piggyback matter again, as it seems to be almost a religious matter for some persons wink1.gif I can discuss specific piggyback questions or issues though, if need is.

"I don't care, blah blah blah"

That's why you haven't read a word I said, you don't care to READ. It's impossible to converse with you if you don't read anything I say.

Now I'm gonna go with your reasons 1 at a time here:

<u>Simplicity</u> - "More people can install a piggyback versus a complete standalone."
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JonGTR)</div><div class='quotemain'>You're still talking about the base tune of the standalone. For the 3rd time, we have the file available. So now it just needs a fine tune, just like your piggyback.</div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JonGTR)</div><div class='quotemain'>We already have a base tune for the PRS and a wiring diagram.</div>
For the 4th freaking time: <u>Tuning and install of the piggyback vs. standalone are the SAME.</u> Damn, how many times do I have to fvcking write this sentence to you!!!?!?!?!?!
There are only 4-5 more wires in the standalone and that's ONLY if you wish to use them. Are you comprehending this or is it going out the other ear just like every time I wrote this before?
If you understand this now, then stop using it in your arguement.


<u>Reliability.</u> "All the things the stock ECU controls would still work perfectly and without issue (gauges, CC, whipers, etc)."
There are people using the PRS right NOW as daily drivers. They provided maps and wire diagrams. AND, it works with all the stock sensors, no problems.


<u>Emmisions</u> - What about them? When you connect the wires, you use but-connectors with labels. When it's time to get checked, you snap them back to stock. Takes 5 minutes and will only trouble you once a year. God, I could have sworn I said this before. You probably "didn't care" to let this part sink in either.


<u>Logics.</u> - "There's no "need" for a standalone."
There is a reason to get it when it works BETTER and cost LESS than any piggyback there is.
What are you gonna do about part throttle "hickups" in the stock ECU? You can't tune that out with a piggyback. The ECU won't let you. It won't let you tune before 4k rpms in WOT either.
What are you gonna do about the revlimiter for these cams? Ok, lets all rely on you til the end of time to get this reprogramming for $200. I think not.


Mods, can you move half of this to this post: http://www.rdtiburon.com/index.php?showtop...0664&hl=emanage
Same argument there.

my dad can beat up your dad