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True...true. Can't argue with that. The Busa is also slow in the corners due to its size. It really shines on the open road. To me, the Busa is like the MarkIV Supra of motorcycles.

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It is until it has been beaten by another bike. Also, bikes can be and have been tested without the ECU restrictions...at least here in Japan they have been. There was a magazine article not too long ago that did just this. The Busa was still faster than the ZX12 and both the Busa and the ZX12 were faster than the BlackbirdXX.

However, I have to be fair and point out the difference was merely a few KPH (less than 7 IIRC), so although the Busa was still tested as being faster, there is no real world appreciable difference between the Kawasaki ZX12 and the Busa....other than the ZX12 is plain ugly so bad it makes the Busa look beautiful!

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I have not seen the video in question so I cannot comment on the time it took for turbo lag. I can comment it takes no time to wind a Busa to 7000RPM and I certainly don't call the miniscule time it does take considerable. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

And "limited to 13,500RPM?" Man, thats pretty damn high to wind such a large engine. Granted, there are bikes here that wing higher than that (and let me tell you they make one aweful sound like a weedeater having sex with an air riad siren!) and man can they take off like a rocket. I guess we just look for different things in bikes. I wouldn't say one is necessarily better then the other....just different.

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Then your knowledge is truely lacking. If you set the turbo to spool at too low an RPM you run the risk of spooling coming out of a turn....BAD, VERY BAD....and you lose top end, what is what the Busa owner was going for. To boost to early is simply not effective. It reminds me of Honduh kids who use nitrous WOT right off the line in drag racing....sure they are putting a lot of power to the wheels, but all they are doing is spinning - and sitting still. You don't just put on power adders and be done with it, you have to tune them to give you your desired effect.

I think you were shooting for a comeback at a perceived slight to you, but since you have made a second comment that differes from reality I must conclude your knowledge about turbos is in fact limited. This is not an insult but rather just noting the fact. If the Busa owner tuned his turbo to spool at too low an RPM, the bike would become unstable in corners and thus be too dangerous to ride and thus useless.

To be ignorant about turbos is nothing to be ashamed about. Hell, I don't know everything nor am I pretending I do. There are books about turbos available or you could do what I do...bug the hell out of people who do know a lot about turbos to get as much info as you can.

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Its still the fastest production made in the world today. I don't see where I'm making it out into something its not. Its the king of the bikes in terms of HP and top speed.

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No KTM dealer I have ever seen in Okinawa, much less my island here. sad.gif

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Yeah, can't argue with that. Laverda went through some tough times in the 1990s. They have now been bought by Aprilia and will debut new models soon...or so the buzz goes. They are certainly different bikes. Parallel twins are the worst engine configuration of all time, and why Laverda chose this for their engines I dunno, but where they excelled was on handeling. They remain some of the best handeling bikes on the planet....yes, right up there with my GOD BRAND - Suzuki.

I tried to buy a used 750s with a blown engine. My goal is to slip a Suzuki SV650 engine into a Laverda frame and ride the hell out of it. I love the twin headlight configuration though most didn't. I like the carbon fibre gas tank to save weight. I love the race suspension that comes stock on the bikes. They were never worth the $14,000 asking price, but maybe one could get a good deal on a used one today and go for an engine swap once the papallel twin gives out. I'm just a Laverda guy to the core.

I'd love to fit in a TL100R engine but I thing its too big for the frame.

I hope you now see my point of view and realize I was not slighting you in any way. We're sportbike guys and its important we realize who our real enemy is......the Harley owner! WOKA WOKA WOKA CLUNK! Dang'it Erlene, there is goed again and done busted! How'em I gonna pay of dis trailer when my HAWG done keep drainin all its oil out blowin up dah mo'tah!?!

 

Sorry, I gotta disagree with you 100%.

The turbo won't spool on you as you exit a corner if you don't want it to...it's called THROTTLE CONTROL. You might want to learn about it, before you go claiming “knowledge” of turbo’s.

Don't oversize the turbo due to your inadequacies as a driver or rider. Learn to drive/ride using the throttle intelligently, and the motor to it's maximum. (when you want it to that is)

The ‘busa, and most super sport motorcycles, have the power to overpower the back tire coming out of turns in normally aspirated form when ridden stupidly, or improperly. Turbocharging it with a small or large turbocharger doesn’t change that. The rider makes the difference.

Driving a car or bike at the limits, it is very easy to exceed the tires limits of traction, turning and acceleration with very LITTLE power.

It’s about “skill” of the rider/driver to keep the car/bike in line, regardless of the power reading at the wheels.

Making the turbo exceptionally large so that it doesn’t spool until over half of the RPM range is past makes the turbo power 100% useless for anything other than straight line speed.

If you are building a 100% all out drag bike, then yeah, having a turbo that doesn’t spool till 7000 RPM is perfectly reasonable. The bike will spend 99% of it’s life over 7000 RPM as it screams down the drag strip or goes for all out top speed.

In this place called the real world…motors spend most of their time AT or UNDER half of the RPM range. That is where the motor (bike or car) can USE the power of the turbo.

When you drive your Skyline…do you mean to tell me you NEVER use boost going around corners? (well, not “around” corners…but coming out of them.)? Can you imagine if you had to floor the accelerator and wait 2-3 second before the turbo spooled? Can you imagine waiting till 4000 or 4500 for boost?

Have you ever though about using the power to drift the back end around to get a better line on the exit of the corner? (or just drifting period!) tongue.gif

Turbo’s are not this big ugly beast rears it's ugly head at a magical RPM and dumps 200 HP into the rear tires causing them to spin and the vehicle to instantly go *** first.

At partial throttle, turbo's come on slowly, and progressively. If the power becomes too much, you can…*gasp* back off the throttle! Yes, it’s true…the driver/rider has *gasp* CONTROL over the vehicle.

You too can do this.

If you learn more about more about driving/riding and dare I say...more about turbo systems and how they work.

To borrow an ad slogan..."Power is nothing without control."

Look to your local racetracks. The fastest bike (lap record holders) are RARELY on the bikes that make the most power. They are held by the guys with the most SKILL to use the limited power they have properly, and to best effect.

If your goal is to make a bike that does nothing but goes fast in a straight line...fine, then a slow spooling monster turbo is the way to go. (or hell, hop up a V-max! *lol*) but for a bike ridden on the street, a smaller, faster spooling turbo would be of more use, and a hell of a lot more fun.

 

I am seeing a virtual soapbox in someone's future.lol. Driver contol eh ? I thought that was being able to talk on a cell phone, put on make-up, and putting a cd in at the same time.HEHEHE!!! All kidding aside the most important mod you can ever make is a racing and/or driving control school. Mucho HP's and no driving skills are a deadly combo.

 

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No problem. Some people revel in being wrong. Who am I to stop you.

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Leaving a corner under 7000RPM happens all the time. Again, throttle control means nothing if you tune your turbo to spool up at low RPMs. It you are at those low RPMs (which you are while cornering) you will engage the turbo anbd overspin the back wheel, thus rendering the bike and the turbo useless. You mention its easy to overthrottle a Busa in a corner in NA form and this is true. however, you seem to imply that for a turbo to be useful it has to be in the low RPM range. You contridict yourself. Since a Busa is naturally dangerous in a corner in NA, it will become infinately more dangerous in a corner in turbo form. Thus, tuning the turbo to come into play at higher RPMs not only makes sense from a performance standpoint, it makes perfect sense from a safetly standpoint as well.

So, I still question your knowledge about turbos as you have shown nothing that would indicate otherwise.

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Naaaaaw really?!?! Yah think this was the goal of the Busa rider? Hmmm maybe? I already stated the Busa is not a canyon carver and a GSXR600 with a good rider would kill one on the right tracks. The Busa is perfectly suited for straight line speed. Imagine a rider wanted to further capitalize on the Busa's inherent strengths and make it faster. eek!

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Seems like your world doesn't jive with the real world RANDOM. This rider obviously utilizes the turbo. its obvious you don't like his style or his choice. I wouldn't turbo by Yamaha either. However, for his purposes turbocharging has worked perfectly and does what it was designed to do. You criticizing it makes no sense whatsoever. I prefer canyon carving over straightline speed, but if you're into straightline speed on an interstate, then turbocharging a bike and tuning it to come into play at 7000RPM makes 100% complete and perfect sense. Tuning it lower makes the bike dangerous for everyday riding and robs power that would be better used to attain higher speed.

So again, I question your knowledge of turbos and their uses. That, or you just hate turbos on a bike and refuse to admit they can be useful for particular purposes.

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Only to induce drift. For newbies, I would not reccomend tuning the turbo for low RPM range. Hell, for me, I don7t want the turbo spooling up too soon.

[QUOUTE]Can you imagine if you had to floor the accelerator and wait 2-3 second before the turbo spooled?[/QUOTE]

Buick GN.

[QB]

Yeah, I can but thats too soon for my purposes. It makes a car drink gas in useless situations and takes away from top end.

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Drifting in Japan? eek! Never heard of it. tongue.gif

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Which is why the rider choose 7000RPM to better control that power to bring him his desired effect.

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And I am well aware of this. I am in no way a squid. however, the Busa was NOT EVER designed to be a TRACK BIKE. Its not a "sports car" its a "GT" car or motorcycles. To compare a Busa's performance on the TRACK to other bikes is not quite fair to the Busa. Its greatest strenght is top speed....where a turbo coming on at 7000RPM makes perfect sense. A turbo on a Busa at the TRACK makes 0% sense at all.

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You mean like drag racing cars? Anyway, you make a false statement, the Busa is still streetable because the turbo only comes on at 7000RPM or higher. Not much chance of that happening in downtown traffic.

In your opinion, which finally comes out. The Busa is not your thing, so its crap. rolleyes.gif A turbo on a bike is NO USE IMO, but I guess some people have found uses for them other than top end. You don't like this Busa....so fine. that does not make it crap or even a bad idea or even boring. The turbo performs exactly as it was designed to do to bring about the desired result. You don't like that result, but that in no way makes the bike, large turbo, or top end inferior in anyway.

its just different....and different is good.

 

Okay dude, I'll try to explain it to you again...and we'll leave your holy 'busa out of it in the hopes that you will understand the concept of driver/rider throttle control.

This feat of magic...it's called throttle control. By using throttle to control the engine (turbo or non-turbo) the rider/driver keeps his vehicle under control. The turbo is not allowed to spin up, as the throttle plate is restricting intake air...which in turn restricts exhaust gas...thus preventing the turbo from spooling.

In a smaller turbo...when the rider/driver opens the throttle, boost builds quickly, and power deliver can be manupliated with the throttle.

On a larger turbo, when the rider/driver opens the throttle, no boost is present...until the engine reaches high enough in the RPM band to put out enough exhaust gases to spin the turbo. Then the power comes on, it much harder to control with the throttle as the turbo is much larger, is moving more air, and has more mass/intertia behind it. Simply physics.

The smaller the turbo, the faster it responds to throttle input. The larger the turbo, the slower it responds to throttle input.

You prove your ignorance rather beautifully.
Throttle control means EVERYTHING with a smaller turbo.

No..it is again..throttle control. A moped is dangerous in the wrong hands. So is a dodge viper. Setting up the turbo to get around a rider or driver inability to control a vehicle is not the proper way to design a turbo system. If it was..do you think OEM's would build big, low spooling turbos. Guess what...they don't. OEM's go out of their WAY to build fast spooling turbos. Ever stop to wonder why? Ever wonder WHY most folks upgrade their twin turbos rather than dump them in favor of larger single turbo's? Spool time, and control.

Ditto! The automotive aftermarket, and the OEM automotive market prove you wrong.

You apparently have very selective reading comprhension. I have clearly stated that they can be useful for DRAG PURPOSES (large, slow spooling turbo's) or road racing/all around use (smaller, slow spooling turbo's) Bike, cars, trucks, mopeds, whatever! the frame/chassis they reside in is irrevelant.

That is you. I would reccomend a fast spooling turbo for newbies, I before I would reccomend a larger turbo. I would size the turbo to be spooled in the bottom 1/4 of the RPM band, so the power is always there for them to get used to, rather than have boost build on them later in the RPM range. 99% of the worlds OEM manufacture's seem to agree with me. And strangly..so does 99% of the automotive press.

I wouldn't want to be giving newbies "top end". The car doesn't "drink gas" in useless situations. The engine won't see boost unles you open the throttle. The engine won't "drink" more gas under non-boost conditions than a N/A car would. Because my turbo spools at 2500 RPM doesn't mean I'm under boost at 5000 RPM. Why not. Again...that thing you seem to lack understanding of..throttle control/position.

I was not comparing the 'busa to anything on the track, I was comparing other track vehicles to other track vehicles. The fastest guy is rarely the guy with the most HP. He's the guy with the most CONTROL. It is is irrelevent if it is a race track or autocross track. The fastest guy is the guy who can use the power/traction he has to the best effect, not the guy with the most HP.

Then I think you need to try to ride through downtown LA traffic just once...try to never get above 7000 RPM and stay alive! I never said the 'busa wasn't "streetable". I simply said a faster spooling turbo would make the turbo more USEFUL!

The ‘busa, and most super sport motorcycles, have the power to overpower the back tire coming out of turns in normally aspirated form when ridden stupidly, or improperly. Turbocharging it with a small or large turbocharger doesn’t change that. The rider makes the difference.

The bike is no more dangerous in turbo form than in N/A form. The rider controls the bike, the turbo doesn't control the bike. Tuneing the turbo to come into play at higher RPM is only makes sense if your only goal is top speed performance, rather than all around performance. It makes no sense whatsoever from a saftey standpoint. Saftey is the rider/drivers responsbility, not the turbo's.

If you want to try to get on the saftey gig...lets go. A 250 MPH bike is more unsafe than a 200 MPH bike. So let's not turbo it at all. heck, in that case, 200 mph is just too fast period...let's limit their top speed (oops..that's already been done). That's a dead end road there. a 5 MPH vehicle is unsafe with an unskilled rider/driver.

I guess we will just have to disagree on this one. I think we covered both sides of the turbo debate rather well (large vs small) tongue.gif

Soap box is open for those that want it!

 

HEHEHEHE, I'm just tickled someone read a post of mine.

 

Damn RANDOM, you are certainly obsessed as hell about an irrelevent point. I won't argue with you anymore because you refuse to face the reality of the situation. You keep riding the dead horse of throttle control like this guy wants his Busa to be a track racer. rolleyes.gif

Get a clue, this guy built a his Busa for top end power. Its simply ridiculous to install a small turbo and tune it to spool at lower RPMs when the rider wants TOP END POWER. Until you realize this, your arrogance will keep you ignorant of what is really going one. You are trying to come off as well versed in turbocharging and bike riding skills, however all you are saying don't mean crap to the present situation.

So again, this leads me to believe you know little to nothing about turbocharging vehicles for specific circumstances. You also seem to want to "win" so badly. However, to win you need an opponent and to have an opponenet you need to be in the same filed as them. To date, no one is arguing with your mantra of rider control, but that point remains irrelevent to this thread. So, try to get on topic for once in this thread....please.

 

This is very, very simple.

If you try to corner and accelerate past the spool point on the turbo, YOU'RE DRIVING IT WRONG.

Pick a different gear, either higher to avoid the spool point or lower to be past it. Your choice.

 

I gotta agree with you there. You seem obsessed with this one Turbo Busa, even though you completely missed every other point.

You keep riding the dead horse of this one bike, and seem to claim based off a video you have not seen, that you are the turbo master, and no one else knows anything. rolleyes.gif

Get a clue, turbos are use for more things than top end power. Its simply ridiculous to think that is all turbos are good/used for. Until you realize this, your ignorance of how turbos work and are used in 99% of applications will astound everyone, as you remain clueless.

You are trying to come off as well versed in turbocharging in reality, you are arguing one narrow viewpoint that was never an issue.

So again, this leads me to believe you know little to nothing about turbocharging vehicles for specific circumstances, and have no reading comprehention skills.

You also seem to want to "win" so badly, you ignore 90% of the comments I have made and keep going back to comment on the video of the bike you have not seen, yet you argue it like some kind of expert.

You claim throttle control/rider control is irreleveant to turbos simply shows your complete and total ignorance of how to make an engiene work (turbo or N/A). That is what completely invaidates any of your "auguments"...which have YET to make a point other than, "a big turbo is good for top end power". If you go back and read, that point was made in my very first post.

You bring nothing to this thread that wasn't already stated, yet you arugue like you have a point, or knowledge. You simply parroted what had already been said. Your comments have repeatly showed your ignorance about turbo use, and sizing, yet you contine to beat the dead horse of this ONE BIKE.

Even if we DO continue to beat the dead horse of this ONE BIKE. How often can you use the top speed of the 'busa? Very rarely. how often can you use the top speed of a TURBOCHARGED 'busa? Even MORE Rarely.

Since you seem to have completely missed my point in all of my previous threads, I'll state it again, one more time, in the hopes you might actually READ IT and comprehend it.

If he went with a SMALLER turbocharger, he would get MORE USE out of it.

That's it. That was the whole point.

If you want to try to arugue that a large turbo could possibly be utilized more. GO ahead. Try. Dazzle me with that mad turbo knowledge you have.

You've been proven wrong in your choice of larger slow spooling turbo's for newbies, you've been proven wrong in large slow spooling turbo's for everyday use. So far, your batting 0. Go ahead, give this one a shot. Backup your big mouth with something.

 

*grabs a beer and popcorn*